D&D General I'm a Creep, I'm a Powergamer: How Power Creep Inevitably Destroys Editions

[Lidgar]

Snarf's working overtime on making new posts it seems.

Hey, that’s a great idea for another karaoke-inspired thread.

 

[Minigiant]

Doesn't 4e proof that power creep is not inevitable?

4e kept power creep at a minimum by making new releases offer new archetypes that did not stack on old archetypes.

 

[Parmandur]

Okay let’s just say I don’t see the utility of challenge rating but am totally cool that you do.

OK, it works if used as designed.

 

[payn]

Doesn't 4e proof that power creep is not inevitable?

4e kept power creep at a minimum by making new releases offer new archetypes that did not stack on old archetypes.

I think the design was pretty tight, but not air tight. We probably wont know as 4E was kneecapped before power creep could take any hold.

 

[Distracted DM]

My biggest issue with 5E and 5.5E.

I would love for those who have never played old school B/X (and/or OSE) to try it's combat. Combat is fast and smooth.

Because its not all bloated with HP and powers and feats etc

And once you get passed level 1 (and assuming you have gained some magic armor by level 2) it's pretty survivable.

Add a few house rules to jack up survivability and its near perfect. Plays fast and its still D&D. You just dont have 40 different powers and abilities to keep track of.

And really, do you need all that to really enjoy D&D?

Edit: greatest lesson ive learned over almost 30 years of D&D is you only need the core books. Oh and simpler is better.

Some of my players complain about OSR games due to lack of character build options- even the ones that talk about going back and playing AD&D seem to forget that almost all of your character choices were made at creation.

The "planning character builds" thing is pretty important to a lot of players- it's a way for them to engage with the game away from the table. I ran DCC with pregens for a few players, and most of them really enjoyed it.. but when the "build-happy" ones dug into the books and saw that you couldn't make a "build" and customize your character yourself through choices/options as they leveled up (most of the things that differentiate characters are random charts or the things that happen in-game) they were less enthusiastic about playing again.

I don't the "making/planning characters without a game to play them in" thing myself, but ... there you go.

 

[Leatherhead]

I think a good deal of what people call "Power Creep" is simply the designers realizing their original project had flaws or gaps.

I also agree with the sentiment that financial reasons are the chief motivator in launching a new edition.

 

[TiQuinn]

Some of my players complain about OSR games due to lack of character build options- even the ones that talk about going back and playing AD&D seem to forget that almost all of your character choices were made at creation.

The "planning character builds" thing is pretty important to a lot of players- it's a way for them to engage with the game away from the table. I ran DCC with pregens for a few players, and most of them really enjoyed it.. but when the "build-happy" ones dug into the books and saw that you couldn't make a "build" and customize your character yourself through choices/options as they leveled up (most of the things that differentiate characters are random charts or the things that happen in-game) they were less enthusiastic about playing again.

I don't the "making/planning characters without a game to play them in" thing myself, but ... there you go.

I found that when you explain up front that the character won’t have a build but that your abilities come through magic items, it puts a different spin on the game and I get less resistance. I’m a lot more liberal in those games with magic items as a result. It’s the way players can customize their characters.

 

[Minigiant]

I think the design was pretty tight, but not air tight. We probably wont know as 4E was kneecapped before power creep could take any hold.

The point was 4e added adjacent content nor additive content. So creep could only happen if the designers run out of ideas.

Look at the 4e Ranger

The PHB had the Arch Ranger and the 2 Blade Ranger
MArtial Power 1 added the Beastmaster Ranger
MArtial Power 2 added the Hunter Ranger and Marauder Ranger

This allowed for

1. Dex Ranged
2. Str Melee
3. Wis Beast
4. Dex Melee+Ranged
5. Str Melee + Ranged

Now technically Archer and Hunter shared powers but that was by design. The Hunter powers were tactical focused vs the Archer's pure damage.

The 2 blade and Marauder also shared powers and feats but again they were horizontal and didn't stack. They were different lines and didn't obsolete each other.

So WOTC could have continued with

• Wis Ranged
• Wis Melee
• Dex Beast
• Str Beast
• Wis Magic
• Dex Magic
• Str Magic

Creep in this case only happens when you run out of ideas.

Power Creep only happens if you allow it or are not creative enough to avoid it.

 

[SlyFlourish]

Further thoughts: I'm speculating that what players are really consuming when they play a game is novelty. So I think there is an inevitable pressure to change things up if you want to keep growing your game's consumer base, which is how businesses work in a capitalist society. D&D is not like chess, which doesn't have to worry about change because no one owns it, so it can just sit in its more or less stable niche in the game ecosystem.

Until D&D is truly a public domain game, WotC will probably need to keep changing it. Of course, if @SlyFlourish and others have their way, this will happen sooner rather than later.

Ha! What way would that be?

 

[Lanefan]

I think everything starting with 2e Player Options was designed with power creep as a feature, not a bug.

Except power creep is never a feature if the game is already working as intended.