D&D General Player-generated fiction in D&D

This is an interesting grey area. While acknowledging the player's input has an effect on the outcome, I don't generally think of players seeking more information or asking clarifying questions as establishing new information.
agreed, the establishment of fiction happened in the first part of the post, where the players introduced places, NPCs and (quest) goals. I am fine with this upfront creation of fiction, doing so in the middle of the session feels much more like cheating to me however.

If my char has to climb over the wall and I declare 'I just use the ladder I see leaning against the wall some 10 feet from me' then I consider that very close to cheating. Same with an earlier example in this thread where someone said they spotted a friend of theirs in the inn and since that friend had some clout, the guards let their character be, that is rather borderline to me. If it happens once, ok, if something like this happens often however...
 
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That is a version of Fate right?
I don't think it's as close as some people do. But in the version that I play - MHRP, plus a hacked fantasy derivative - if you use a Distinction as a "disadvantage" (putting d4 into your pool rather than d8) or if you activate a Limit against yourself (generally this means either shutting down an ability temporarily, or stepping up a penalty you've suffered) then you get a "plot point", which is a type of meta-token that can be spent to manipulate/enhance your dice pool, or to activate some abilities.

What if an XP/reward system existed which the DM offered during play to mechanically hamper you (like disadvantage) for a situation related to your TBIF. So you get the reward if you accept the disadvantage as the action relates to your TBIF. Is that something worth exploring for your character?
In Torchbearer 2e, "camp checks" are a necessary meta-resource, that can only be earned by using a trait against yourself (and thus taking a penalty on a roll) rather than to benefit you. As an example, instead of "I'm so avaricious that nothing can stop me swiping that necklace" (and thus getting a buff to the check to swipe the necklace) the player can declare "Blinded by my avarice, I lunge out recklessly to swipe the necklace" (and thus suffer a debuff to the roll, but gaining a "camp check).

There's a broad resemblance in between the two mechanics described above (Cortex+ Heroic and Torchbearer 2e).

But Torchbearer has another mechanic - its advancement mechanic - which is also relevant. And can be compared to a 4e D&D mechanic.

In TB2e, level gain depends upon (i) earning and then (ii) spending Fate and Persona points, which are meta-tokens that buff checks in various ways. You earn these by acting on Beliefs, pursuing and achieving Goals, and/or playing out in-character conflicts between Beliefs and Goals. Players write a Goal at the start of each session, and can also change their Belief at the start of each session if they wish.

This system pushes players towards action declarations that are oriented towards their Beliefs and Goals in various ways. (In terms of the OP, this is player-generated fiction in respect of the focus of play.) And even though the player is not self-consciously choosing to disadvantage their PC (so it's not like the earlier examples in this post), part of what is involved in GMing this system is establishing situations which put risks/costs/obstacles in the way of those orientations, so that players put their PCs into harm's way, or take risks, or act "irrationally" in pursuit of what they want. Personally, I find this is a more powerful driver of strong roleplay and character development/discovery than the more light and frothy "use a trait/distinction against yourself" mechanic.

In 4e D&D, the counterpart to Beliefs and Goals is the player-authored Quest. The DMG (p 103) says the following, under the heading "Conflicting Quests":

You can present quests that conflict with each other, or with the characters’ alignments or goals. The players have the freedom to make choices about which quests to accept, and these can be great opportunities for roleplaying and character development.​

Letting the players generate the fiction of what is the focus of play, and then (as GM) using your authority over framing to put these various things in tension with one another and thereby prompting invested choices by the players in declaring actions for their PCs, is (in my experience) what drives character development/discovery.
 

i'm sure all those responses have their place, but i think by that same merit so does a plain 'no', sometimes you simply fail, sometimes your idea wasn't a valid one.
It brings up the question about who determines validity
So I assume we are talking about the GM making that determination. Which prompts the question: when playing with a high volume of player-generated fiction, when is it appropriate for the GM to tell a player that their idea is not valid?

I'm not going to pretend to offer a general formula. But I'm reminded of this:

The real cause and effect in a roleplaying game isn't in the fictional game world, it's at the table, in what the players and GM say and do.

If you want awesome stuff to happen in your game, you don't need rules to model the characters doing awesome things, you need rules to provoke the players to say awesome things. That's the real cause and effect at work: things happen because someone says they do. If you want cool things to happen, get someone to say something cool. . . .

If your rules model a character's doing cool things, and in so doing they get the players to say cool things, that's great. I have nothing against modeling the cool things characters do as such.

Just, if your rules model a character's doing cool things, but the player using them still says dull things, that's not so great. . . .

If you don't even agree with each other about what's cool, I've got absolutely nothing for you. Are you sure you should be playing games together in the first place?​

Assuming that those of us playing together generally agree about what's cool, it shouldn't come up very often that someone's idea is not valid.
 

If my char has to climb over the wall and I declare 'I just use the ladder I see leaning against the wall some 10 feet from me' then I consider that very close to cheating.
This example was mentioned in the context of skill challenge resolution. And it was suggested that a Streetwise check would be appropriate.

So it's not "cheating" - it's bringing a new set of possibilities and stakes into the fictional situation. (In the OP, I called this player-generated fiction in respect of what is possible in action resolution.)

Same with an earlier example in this thread where someone said they spotted a fried of theirs in the inn and since that friend had some clout, the guards let their character be, that is rather borderline to me. If it happens once, ok, if something like this happens often however...
That s @Eric V's example from 13th Age. It involved using/spending an Icon die. (These are a limited resource, from memory session-based, though I don't recall the full details.)

That is exactly the sort of thing the Icon dice are for!

What it means, in practice, is that the events that occur to and around a PC will tend to reflect (in some fashion, as interpreted by the table) the Icon who is their patron/guardian/nemesis (my memory is that 13th Age is quite flexible in terms of what a PC-Icon relationship means). Likewise in 4e D&D, and consistent with what @AbdulAlhazred posted not far upthread, the events and action a PC is involved in will tend to reflect, to some degree, the build and resulting orientation of the character. So if the character is strong in Arcana, then the action around them will tend to involve arcane knowledge. If the character is strong in Streetwise, then the action around them will tend to involve shadowy personages and urban shenanigans, including finding ladders in unexpected places.

This is part and parcel of the players playing a role in generating the shared fiction.
 


This example was mentioned in the context of skill challenge resolution. And it was suggested that a Streetwise check would be appropriate.
I thought that was some sales stand at the wall. I admit that my example was based on it, but it was not meant to refer back to it.

That s @Eric V's example from 13th Age. It involved using/spending an Icon die. (These are a limited resource, from memory session-based, though I don't recall the full details.)

That is exactly the sort of thing the Icon dice are for!
ok, then it is fine. If this were not based on a limited resource that is specifically for things like this, I'd consider it cheating.
 

The 4e D&D rulebooks have quite a bit of advocacy for the players making decisions about the shared fiction: backstory, the focus of the action, what is possible here-and-now in terms of action declaration.

Some examples around the focus of the action:

PHB p 258: "You can also, with your DM’s approval, create a quest for your character. Such a quest can tie into your character’s background. For instance, perhaps your mother is the person whose remains lie in the Fortress of the Iron Ring. Quests can also relate to individual goals, such as a ranger searching for a magic bow to wield. Individual quests give you a stake in a campaign’s unfolding story and give your DM ingredients to help develop that story."​
DMG p 103: "You should allow and even encourage players to come up with their own quests that are tied to their individual goals or specific circumstances in the adventure. Evaluate the proposed quest and assign it a level. Remember to say yes as often as possible!"​

Players come up with quests for their characters often in my games, regardless of the edition. It's not typically very formal, and I don't need to assign levels or anything - the player decides their character has a goal, and pursues it via deciding to take those actions in play. They decide where to go and what goals to pursue.

I do let players know that they still need to have characters that are on board for whatever the group is doing, so we don't pull in too many narrative directions at once. And, not every player feels great leaning into this kind of roleplaying. Some prefer to be a little more reactive - game for whatever the current narrative is.

An example of that is my gothic fantasy snow white campaign. There's a reason the party is called together, and it defines the arc of the campaign ("steal the crown of the princess of the cursed kingdom for the rat king.") Why the players pursue such a goal is something I explicitly put in their hands, and some are a little reactive, and others are a little more pro-active. I've got one player leaning into the idea of restoring the order of Looking-Glass Knights that once defended the queen, so I'm putting in effort into allowing him to do that through the narrative (there's an NPC he can specifically inspire and forge common cause with). Another is explicitly learning how to become a Thief of Stories, so that element gets a bit more work (through another allied NPC). The party Fighter, though, is just kind of along for the ride, and is having fun being along for the ride.

What I find useful for encouraging this is a light touch with the sort of intended campaign arc. Often, I'll even write the arc after the PC's make their party, so I can specifically highlight classes, races, backgrounds, etc. Makes envisioning the path easier, anyway. :)

Some examples around what is possible in action declaration:

DMG p 42: "Your presence as the Dungeon Master is what makes D&D such a great game. You make it possible for the players to try anything they can imagine. That means it’s your job to resolve unusual actions when the players try them. . . . [rules and guidelines follow, and then an example action declaration] . . . This sort of action is exactly the kind of thinking you want to encourage . . ."​
DMG pp 73-5: "When a player’s turn comes up in a skill challenge, let that player’s character use any skill the player wants. As long as the player or you can come up with a way to let this secondary skill play a part in the challenge, go for it. . . . players can and will come up with ways to use skills you do not expect. . . . Characters might have access to utility powers or rituals that can help them. These might allow special uses of skills, perhaps with a bonus. Rituals in particular might grant an automatic success or remove failures from the running total. . . . Thinking players are engaged players. In skill challenges, players will come up with uses for skills that you didn’t expect to play a role. Try not to say no."​

Yeah, happens all the time. I encourage a "what would your CHARACTER" do mindset to help get away from the menu of action choices and get more into the land of character goals.

Last session, a PC dragged an exploding lightning-ice-golem-thing away from the rest of the party. I've got a halfling often perched on the back of an orc.

I don't really need a specific construct like a skill challenge to encourage this. Personally, the skill challenge structure always struck me as over-designed and gamist, so I typically rely more on a call-and-response kind of format where I just ask what the PC wants to do, and then tell them what skill to roll (often using group checks when they all want to do something similar).

Some examples around backstory:

DMG2 p 12: "A sense of shared authorship between you and the players can begin before you start playing, when you create the campaign. . . . Have each player bring a pitch, a basic idea for the campaign . . . The pitch is a simple sentence that describes how the player characters fit into their world."​
DMG2 p 15: "You might also ask players to invent one or two NPCs to whom they have important ties. These can be ties of loyalty . . . Alternatively, these NPCs might despise the character, and you can use the NPCs as obstacles to the character's goals."​
DMG2 pp 16-17: "The process of shared creation doesn't need to stop during your campaign's prep phase. You can continue it by allowing players a role in inventing your D&D world. . . . When you are presented with player input into your world, start by repeating to yourself the first rule of improvisation: Never negate. . . . Three main techniques allow you to bring player suggestions to the fore: incidental reference solicited input, and the turnaround. Proactive players might employ a fourth method, the direct assertion."​

I don't formally collect player input or suggestions for world elements, but I do work player elements into planning as I described above, and I do get their buy-in for the big idea of a campaign. In my current game, the characters were strangers to the world, and so presenting them a land that they did not know and had to figure out was part of the appeal. Having them design an NPC would've been at cross-purposes with that appeal. In more open-ended games, I like to have the PC's tell me what they're interested in at character creation, and then build the slice of the world they'll see through the lens of their characters. Like, a PC choosing the Criminal background might mean there's a criminal organization that'll be prominent in the game, and a PC choosing the Shadow Sorcerer subclass probably means I'll be referencing the Shadowfell at some point, and a PC choosing to be a dragonborn probably means there will be dragons, and if that is all in the same PC, maybe I have a shadow dragon who sits at the core of a network of thieves as one of the villains of the game.

When I used to GM Rolemaster and AD&D, players would contribute around backstory, and the focus of the action, but not so much in terms of what is possible in action declaration. Those systems don't support that sort of player contribution like 4e D&D does!

Who else's D&D has a high volume of player-generated fiction?

I don't personally find that the edition matters that much for me - this is how I approached AD&D and how I approach 5e. When I ran 4e, I found a few elements worked against this style, but not enough to invalidate it. Like, the formalism of the skill challenge was never anything I adopted, and I didn't really miss it, and I don't think I had fewer moments of improvised skill checks because of that. Folks still told me what their characters did and I gave them a skill to roll.
 

There is no deeper truth, in the sense that it is all fiction and hence - in at least one sense of the word - artifice.

But sometimes the player is invited to decide who their character "really" is, or what they are really committed to. Here's an example from 4e D&D play, that I first posted around a decade ago:
That's just one illustration of the relationship between player-generated fiction in relation to the focus of play, and "discovery" of character.
What there was player generated fiction?
 

Players come up with quests for their characters often in my games, regardless of the edition. It's not typically very formal, and I don't need to assign levels or anything - the player decides their character has a goal, and pursues it via deciding to take those actions in play. They decide where to go and what goals to pursue.

Yes. I can't recall a game where this didn't happen. Though absence of a central, all encompassing, "main plot" makes this more frequent.
 
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It sometimes feel like nearly every thread on these boards eventually become the same argument.

Anyway, I encourage my players to develop as little or as much* backstory as they like, as long as they understand (and I try to make it clear) that I will pick and choose and twist from what they provide in order to integrate it into the campaign with no promise to use all or even most of it.

My campaigns usually have a loose theme I present to the players before character creation, so that helps keep things in a ballpark.

During the campaign, they might also help generate fiction through the indication of their interest, "I plan to ask around in the next town if anyone has seen my brother." Now I as DM can develop subplot about said sightings making use of whatever level of detail the player decided to include in the backstory. They might not have said anything aside from "I have a missing brother," which I interpret as "I am willing to go in any direction to follow the brother plot." On the other hand, if they wrote "I have a brother who went missing when he joined the circus," that is giving me details to work with.

However, they might say that but for pacing reasons or to avoid one player becoming too much the spotlight, I may have that town be a dead end in the big picture search for the brother.

I also try to be generous in saying yes to the "is there a ladder around?" kind of questions, but only if it makes sense in the established fiction and the described reality of the place the characters are inhabiting. So maybe a secure town with an old wall constantly in need of repair but not serving any immediate value might have some ladders hanging around, a militaristic place or place on high alert would likely have a stricter protocol for climbing on or building near the wall, for example.

*"as much" comes with the caveat that I may not read it all or very closely, if it gets ridiculously long (i.e. anything more than a page or two).
 

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