D&D (2024) D&D species article

[Zuranthium]

No. You have a 10% increased chance to hit against ALL armor classes. That's it. You get an average of two extra hits every 4-5 combats.

LOL, that's not how math works. "10%" is not the same thing at all times.

The difference between needing 19/20 and 17/20 to hit means you're doing TWICE as much damage over time with 17. It's NOT only 10% more damage, and this difference is extremely noticeable for a player. Saying "2 extra hits every 4-5 combats" (a misnomer to begin with) is not accurate representation.

Similar for things like haste in a real-time game. If someone has "weapon delay decreased by 50%" (2 sec weapon delay --> 1 second) they are doing 100% more damage, not 50% more. If you have a "25% decrease" you're doing 33% more damage. A 67% gap, not just a 25% gap when going from "50%" to "25%".

That would massively increase complexity.

No. It. Wouldn't. Getting very tired of this fallacy. Especially when there's ways to decrease complexity while at the same time achieving some of the things I'm talking about, and when you raise no qualm about other complexities.

Look at the weapon mastery change for 2024 D&D, adding new properties to each weapon in the game. Is that "too complex"? Is that going to push players away? According to everything else you've said, this is a problem...and yet you don't have a problem with it. Hypocritical.

+4 Strength spells with nonlinear ability mods is a QUICK way to sell no books.

Why are you talking about nonlinear. No "mods" (damage, skill check) would be nonlinear. The one idea of carrying capacity being somewhat nonlinear is not a problem at all, it would follow a formula that is still very easy to understand and calculate:

If your strength is 1-10, multiply by 10 to get your carrying capacity.
If your strength is 11 or higher, multiply that number by itself to get your carrying capacity.

 

[Corinnguard]

It is more the case that the Dexterity ability itself is inherently problematic, conflictive, (and overpowered). For example, you would use Dexterity for a jump test, despite the fact the core rules make Jump unambiguously a Strength check.

Because the six D&D abilities are so profoundly a mess, each DM figures ones own way of trying to make it work.

Maybe 5e should bring back 3e's Skill Synergies? 3e SRD:Table of Skill Synergies - D&D Wiki

3e had it where 5 or more ranks in a particular skill would give another skill a +2-synergy bonus. So, 5 ranks of Jump would grant a +2 bonus to Tumble checks, and vice versa. For 5e, I would probably replace the +2-synergy bonus with Advantage instead as you have one of your skills aiding another skill's skill check.

 

[Minigiant]

No. It. Wouldn't. Getting very tired of this fallacy. Especially when there's ways to decrease complexity while at the same time achieving some of the things I'm talking about, and when you raise no qualm about other complexities.

Look at the weapon mastery change for 2024 D&D, adding new properties to each weapon in the game. Is that "too complex"? Is that going to push players away? According to everything else you've said, this is a problem...and yet you don't have a problem with it. Hypocritical.

It's because they are on separate pillars of play.

You are suggesting going from

Attack Mod: (Strength -10)/2
Damage Mod: (Strength -10)/2
Skill Mod: (Strength -10)/2
Carrying Capacity: Strength * 15

To

Attack Mod: (Strength -10)/2
Damage Mod: (Strength -10)
Skill Mod: (Strength -10)/2, roll d10s instead of d20s
Carrying Capacity: if Strength is 1-10, Strength * 10, if Strength is 11-17, Strength * 15,
if Strength is 18-24 Strength * 20
AND Having +X and -X spells

Yeah you know how that's gonna turn out.

"you defined by Strength. so what's my attack bonus again. Wait wait wait my carry capacity changed.Oh is it times 10 or times 15? Yeah it's different amounts depending on strength but I don't remember. I forgot. Let's look in the book. Carry capacity carry capacity page..."

Vs

"Add your 1d6 to damage. Got it"

 

[UngeheuerLich]

LOL, that's not how math works. "10%" is not the same thing at all times.

The difference between needing 19/20 and 17/20 to hit means you're doing TWICE as much damage over time with 17.

Yes. But both are so bad, that it does not matter. You won't fight long enough battles that effective hp are relevant.
It is just 10% higher chance to hit.

It's NOT only 10% more damage, and this difference is extremely noticeable for a player. Saying "2 extra hits every 4-5 combats" (a misnomer to begin with) is not accurate representation.

No it is not 10% more damage. For average hit ranges it is about 20% more damage.

Similar for things like haste in a real-time game. If someone has "weapon delay decreased by 50%" (2 sec weapon delay --> 1 second) they are doing 100% more damage, not 50% more. If you have a "25% decrease" you're doing 33% more damage. A 67% gap, not just a 25% gap when going from "50%" to "25%".

Which is not necessarily true. If you kill in the first hit anyway, you deal no more damage. If you need 2 hits to kill, you only kill 50% faster, as you need 1 sec to kill (attack at 0 and 1 sec vs attacl at 0 and 2 sec.)

If you deal 10 damage and the enemy has 12 hp, your 50% weapon delay increase is worse than 20% more damage.

Really, it is not as simple as you want to paint it.

Your modelling is only correct in drawn out battles and if the delay starts before
the first shot. Not after. Which is usally how most weapons in shooters work.

So please get YOUR math straight before accusing others of fallacies.

 

[Minigiant]

Overall I would prefer symmetry

1. Human: Human
2. Celestial Human: Aasimar
3. Fiendish Human: Tiefling
4. Small: Hafling
5. Stout: Dwarf
6. Big: Orc Goliath
7. Giant: Goliath again
8. Dragonborn: Dragonborn
9. Fey: Elf
10. Shadow: ???

We have an extra Small.
Goliath is doing double duty
Orc has no role
No Shadow counterpart for Fey Elf

They should have gone to 12 species.

 

[Corinnguard]

No Shadow counterpart for Fey Elf

What about the Shadar-Kai or Shadowfell Elf? To bring it up to 12, Elemental Human: Genasi.

 

[Minigiant]

What about the Shadar-Kai or Shadowfell Elf? To bring it up to 12, Elemental Human: Genasi.

Id just add them to elf and add a new Daywalker undead wannabe

1. Human: Human
2. Celestial Human: Aasimar
3. Fiendish Human: Tiefling
4. Small: Hafling
5. Stout: Dwarf
6. Big: Orc (Give back Powerful Build)
7. Giant: Goliath again
8. Dragonborn: Dragonborn
9. Fey: Elf
10. Shadow: Dhampir
11. Tech: Gnome
12. Beast: Leonin

 

[Zuranthium]

[lots of wrong statements about what was previously said]

I never wrote that thing you're saying about damage mod and my last post literally stated the very simple rule for carrying capacity. You don't listen. And why are you writing that anyone would become more confused about attack mod when there's nothing different about it. People already have to change their attack mod when their strength changes. It's not hard.

You keep trying to pretend that basic things are complex (while ignoring the example about the new weapon mastery rules, hmmmm). There is nothing confusing whatsoever about rolling d10 for skill checks. People roll different dice for damage than they do for attack rolls and nobody is confused by it. Going by your own mantra, both d20 and AC shouldn't even be used in the game, since this "confuses" people and "adds more pillars to the game". Instead, it should just be the Nimble system used, where everyone rolls their damage die to determine a hit or not.

If you kill in the first hit anyway, you deal no more damage.

That's not how a typical MMORPG functions, which is what was being discussed.

You're wrong anyway about this, and the other examples you wrote, for any game where the attacks always have initial swing time. If you're killing someone on first hit, having a 1 second attack instead of 2 seconds means you have 1 second of extra time to do something else, aka move onto the next target.

If you deal 10 damage and the enemy has 12 hp, your 50% weapon delay increase is worse than 20% more damage.

Again, initial delay. You attack twice in 2 seconds = target dead. Or you attack once in 2 seconds = target dead.

And now imagine the target has 13 HP. 2 hits in 2 seconds still kills. Whereas with the slower, 20% more damage weapon, you need 4 seconds, so it's like you don't have any damage boost at all.

Or we could look at 21 HP, it becomes 3 seconds vs 4 seconds to kill. Now the faster weapon isn't performing at 2x effectiveness.

But of course in all relevant examples, you're attacking many times to be able to kill a level-appropriate enemy. So it approximately averages out in the end.

 

[UngeheuerLich]

I never wrote that thing you're saying about damage mod and my last post literally stated the very simple rule for carrying capacity. You don't listen. And why are you writing that anyone would become more confused about attack mod when there's nothing different about it. People already have to change their attack mod when their strength changes. It's not hard.

You keep trying to pretend that basic things are complex (while ignoring the example about the new weapon mastery rules, hmmmm). There is nothing confusing whatsoever about rolling d10 for skill checks. People roll different dice for damage than they do for attack rolls and nobody is confused by it. Going by your own mantra, both d20 and AC shouldn't even be used in the game, since this "confuses" people and "adds more pillars to the game". Instead, it should just be the Nimble system used, where everyone rolls their damage die to determine a hit or not.


That's not how a typical MMORPG functions, which is what was being discussed.

You're wrong anyway about this, and the other examples you wrote, for any game where the attacks always have initial swing time. If you're killing someone on first hit, having a 1 second attack instead of 2 seconds means you have 1 second of extra time to do something else, aka move onto the next target.

Ok. I thought I read FPS somewhere. You said real time game. All other real time games besides MMOs usuall have a delay after the first shot.

Again, initial delay. You attack twice in 2 seconds = target dead. Or you attack once in 2 seconds = target dead.

Ok.

And now imagine the target has 13 HP. 2 hits in 2 seconds still kills. Whereas with the slower, 20% more damage weapon, you need 4 seconds, so it's like you don't have any damage boost at all.

Yeah, correct.

Or we could look at 21 HP, it becomes 3 seconds vs 4 seconds to kill. Now the faster weapon isn't performing at 2x effectiveness.

Of course. As I said, it is not always that clear, how good reducing delay is compared to damage increase.

But of course in all relevant examples, you're attacking many times to be able to kill a level-appropriate enemy. So it approximately averages out in the end.

No, you don't. At least not for the first half of the game. If you are often in a situation where you only hit with a 19 or 20, you did something wrong.

 

[Minigiant]

I never wrote that thing you're saying about damage mod and my last post literally stated the very simple rule for carrying capacity. You don't listen. And why are you writing that anyone would become more confused about attack mod when there's nothing different about it. People already have to change their attack mod when their strength changes. It's not hard.

You keep trying to pretend that basic things are complex (while ignoring the example about the new weapon mastery rules, hmmmm). There is nothing confusing whatsoever about rolling d10 for skill checks. People roll different dice for damage than they do for attack rolls and nobody is confused by it. Going by your own mantra, both d20 and AC shouldn't even be used in the game, since this "confuses" people and "adds more pillars to the game". Instead, it should just be the Nimble system used, where everyone rolls their damage die to determine a hit or not

Weapon Mastery is more complexity.

However it is added to the part of the sheet.

Whereas changing skills to d10 is a rules difference that must be remembered.

There is a difference between rules constantly used that are written down on the sheet and rules that would need to be looked up by most people every time it's referenced.