D&D General Player-generated fiction in D&D

[AbdulAlhazred]

But certainly this is something players do all the time in practically every RPG? Or what do you mean by "not established"?

I've never claimed otherwise. There could be matters of degree, and how common it really is. By not established I mean something the PC is going to do anyway as part of play. A quest to kill an orc would be kind of moot, not deserving an explicit reward if the adventure is already all about hunting orcs.

Right. But wasn't the thread specifically about player-generated fiction? I remain confused and examples @pemerton offered didn't help, as many of those to my eye didn't seem to contain such, so I assume they mean something else by it...

I'm not sure how they're not... I guess some nuance is lost in posting though. Like if you read our 4e PbP there's also been conversation on Discord where something gets added by a player to the game, like I added Padraig's son, and then the GM maybe presents it in a post and the origin of that fiction becomes obscure.

 

[Crimson Longinus]

I've never claimed otherwise. There could be matters of degree, and how common it really is. By not established I mean something the PC is going to do anyway as part of play. A quest to kill an orc would be kind of moot, not deserving an explicit reward if the adventure is already all about hunting orcs.

Where does this "going to do anyway" come from? Didn't the players choose to do it?

I'm not sure how they're not... I guess some nuance is lost in posting though. Like if you read our 4e PbP there's also been conversation on Discord where something gets added by a player to the game, like I added Padraig's son, and then the GM maybe presents it in a post and the origin of that fiction becomes obscure.

Because a lot of examples were in fact just player making choices and taking actions, not inventing new fictional elements. And that's why I am confused. I don't think my game entails a lot of player-generated fiction, yet the players in it are doing similar stuff than in @pemerton's examples.

 

[AbdulAlhazred]

Where does this "going to do anyway" come from? Didn't the players choose to do it?

Come now, we are all well aware that most situations already involve various goals. "Clear out the Caves of Chaos" already subsumes killing the monsters there. Adding a quest, in 4e's terms as an additional source of XP, would be redundant. Now, "recover the sword of your father, taken by the orcs" would be legit IMHO, and if that is supplied by the player generated invention of fathers and swords and such, then you begin to enter the zone of player-driven play, though it can go much further.

Because a lot of examples were in fact just player making choices and taking actions, not inventing new fictional elements. And that's why I am confused. I don't think my game entails a lot of player-generated fiction, yet the players in it are doing similar stuff than in @pemerton's examples.

Ok, as I said before, maybe some nuances of play were lost in the process.

 

[hawkeyefan]

I don’t see it.
GM solely establishing the focus of play would be the players get no menu of options.

If you go to a restaurant and order something off the menu, who is it that decided the contents of that meal?

 

[Crimson Longinus]

Come now, we are all well aware that most situations already involve various goals. "Clear out the Caves of Chaos" already subsumes killing the monsters there. Adding a quest, in 4e's terms as an additional source of XP, would be redundant. Now, "recover the sword of your father, taken by the orcs" would be legit IMHO, and if that is supplied by the player generated invention of fathers and swords and such, then you begin to enter the zone of player-driven play, though it can go much further.

Sure, it wouldn't add much, I agree. But what I am getting at is that, presumably at some point the players also chose to go to clear the Caves of Chaos or whatever, so weren't they on a player-generated quest in the first place?

I am trying to get what is actually meant by this "player generated quest."

 

[Manbearcat]

Sure, it wouldn't add much, I agree. But what I am getting at is that, presumably at some point the players also chose to go to clear the Caves of Chaos or whatever, so weren't they on a player-generated quest in the first place?

I am trying to get what is actually meant by this "player generated quest."

Who has the breadcrumbs and who is following them?

Is the generated setting and situation content in service to challenging the character's goals (expressed via the player directly or via the player through system) or did the player generate goals in service to the pre-authored setting and situation?

I can't state it more clearly than that I don't think.

 

[AbdulAlhazred]

Sure, it wouldn't add much, I agree. But what I am getting at is that, presumably at some point the players also chose to go to clear the Caves of Chaos or whatever, so weren't they on a player-generated quest in the first place?

I am trying to get what is actually meant by this "player generated quest."

I think it is hard to say, but I also think this kind of wanders away from the focus of the thread. Surely B2 isn't player generated fiction simply because the players suggested playing it! I think that's why this topic was created as opposed to endless discussions about 'empowerment' or 'authority'.

Beyond that, you mentioned that you have similar play to the OP. I don't doubt that. I can't speak for others but I am certainly not implying anything about any game. Maybe the two of you play the same sorts of games.

 

[Crimson Longinus]

Who has the breadcrumbs and who is following them?

Is the generated setting and situation content in service to challenging the character's goals (expressed via the player directly or via the player through system) or did the player generate goals in service to the pre-authored setting and situation?

I can't state it more clearly than that I don't think.

The thing is, in my experience in practice it rarely is clear cut. The GM presents the world, with all sorts of details and events in it, some of them probably informed and inspired by character backstories. Then the players choose to focus on some aspect, and the GM generates more content related to that.

 

[mamba]

We're talking about who developed the fiction associated with what the focus of problem solving itself is. If you generate a keyed Dungeon with various puzzles in it and that's the focus of play, then the mere fact that I can invent 7 ways to defeat a pit trap, some of which the GM doubtless never thought of, is not 'authoring fiction' in a way that is super meaningful.

I believe the question is how much player input it takes for a quest to be considered authored by the players.

Is it enough to say ‘we want to rescue the princess from the dragon’ and the rest is up to the DM or do they have to declare where the dragon lives, what its lair looks like and what its stats are before it becomes player authored fiction.

I assume the answer lies somewhere between these two. Not sure everyone will agree to where exactly that is, but maybe we can narrow it down a little

 

[FrogReaver]

If you go to a restaurant and order something off the menu, who is it that decided the contents of that meal?

A game of d&d is not a restaurant