D&D (2024) New stealth rules.

[Argyle King]

There is no such thing as actual invisibility in the real world though. No living thing is actually invisible in the entire span of the world.



Nothing in 5e was ever absurd to this degree. Once you take this out of the realm of a player acting up and dancing in front of guards, and turn it into "players immolated by a dragon that "hid" in a bush 600 years ago and has been flying around invisible ever since" or "An army of hobgoblins hid behind a hill once, now they march invisible past every single town to sack the capital directly" then it is clear that this interpretation of the intent is nonsense.

There are prototypes for invisibility cloaks that function by manipulation of light.

Infrared light is normally not visible, but there are real-world methods for being able to observe that it is there.

Even ignoring that, camouflage and invisibility are defined differently in relation to how human vision typically works.

Do I think that the current interpretation of how stealth and invisibility works in D&D 5e24 is nonsense? Yes, and I have said that.

However, with the limited information currently available to be, it appears that the 5e24 rules currently offer no way to interpret how it works without creating broken interactions with other aspects of the game.

Another example of something absurd could be that the entire army you've mentioned could grapple a character, and the character would still be able to use a longbow.

In 3rd Edition, a high level fighter with the right chain of Cleave feats could teleport around the world in 6 seconds by lining up a bunch of commoners and killing them.

In early 4th Edition, I could use Mirror Sphere to force a character to eat itself.

5th Edition isn't immune to having some unusual rules.

It's not difficult to houserule that a "hidden" condition exists in 5e. However, such a thing does not currently appear in the 5e24 rules.

 

[Charlaquin]

The bottom line is that the term "invisible" in 5E does not match the basic English standard understanding of the word. It's more of a metaphorical usage. "He sat alone at lunch among the jocks and cheerleaders, and was invisible."

Except it does match the standard English understanding when it’s caused by the invisibility spell. Only when it’s gained by the hide action does it seem to be this special, different form of invisibility that just means “not currently being looked at.”

 

[Maxperson]

Also just got the see invisibility spell. And yes see invisibility does knock out stealth…

See Invisibility
"For the duration, you see objects and creatures that have the Invisible condition as if they were visible, and you can see into the Ethereal plane."

You would have thought that they would have fixed that language. The whole issue that resulted in the See Invisibility spell not letting you really see through invisibility in the 2014 rules was that the See Invisibility spell didn't say you lost the advantage on attacks for being invisible. It still doesn't say that.

To make matter worse, the 2024 invisibility condition now gives the invisible person advantage on initiative, so according to Crawford's logic with the last ruling, even if you have See Invisibility on, the invisible creature still gets advantage on both initiative and attacks, and you still have disadvantage attacking it.

 

[Charlaquin]

Rules as written is that the Invisible condition from the Hide Action ends when “an enemy finds you.” It is yours (and others’) interpretation that this requires a Perception check even when the Hiding character steps out in front of the guards. I’m not the one making assumptions about RAI here.

It’s what the words say. I am interpreting them, yes, as directly as possible, without assuming any extra, unwritten words.

 

[Charlaquin]

You would have thought that they would have fixed that language. The whole issue that resulted in the See Invisibility spell not letting you really see through invisibility in the 2014 rules was that the See Invisibility spell didn't say you lost the advantage on attacks for being invisible. It still doesn't say that.

To make matter worse, the 2024 invisibility condition now gives the invisible person advantage on initiative, so according to Crawford's logic with the last ruling, even if you have See Invisibility on, the invisible creature still gets advantage on both initiative and attacks, and you still have disadvantage attacking it.

That’s wrapped into the condition now. A creature with see invisibility can somehow see an invisible creature (even when it’s the real kind of invisible that the spell grants), so the invisible creature doesn’t get the “concealed” or “attacks affected” benefits from the condition as they relate to the creature with see invisibility.

 

[Maxperson]

Rules as written is that the Invisible condition from the Hide Action ends when “an enemy finds you.” It is yours (and others’) interpretation that this requires a Perception check even when the Hiding character steps out in front of the guards. I’m not the one making assumptions about RAI here.

It's literally RAW that it takes a perception check. Unless you take it out of context. The context of "an enemy finds you" is that it is related to "...which is the DC to find you with a Wisdom (perception) check."

 

[Maxperson]

That’s wrapped into the condition now. A creature with see invisibility can somehow see an invisible creature (even when it’s the real kind of invisible that the spell grants), so the invisible creature doesn’t get the “concealed” or “attacks affected” benefits from the condition as they relate to the creature with see invisibility.

Okay. So concealed and advantage/disadvantage with attacks go away, but the Invisible Condition doesn't have that qualifier for the advantage on initiative.

 

[Charlaquin]

Okay. So concealed and advantage/disadvantage with attacks go away, but the Invisible Condition doesn't have that qualifier for the advantage on initiative.

Right, because the Concealed and Attacks Affected benefits can both apply against some creatures and not against others. You can’t really do that with advantage on initiative, you either have it or you don’t.

 

[Incenjucar]

Except it does match the standard English understanding when it’s caused by the invisibility spell. Only when it’s gained by the hide action does it seem to be this special, different form of invisibility that just means “not currently being looked at.”

The Invisibility spell may have a secondary effect in addition to the Invisible condition, in the sense that you can have a ball of fire that is different than the Fireball spell.

But this is the invisible condition regardless, per the first post:
"Invisible Condition:

While you have the Invisible condition, you experience the following effects.

Surprise. If you're invisible when you roll Initiative, you have Advantage on the roll.

Concealed. You aren't affected by any effect that requires its target to be seen unless the effects creator can somehow see you. Any equipment you are wearing or carrying is also concealed.

Attacks Affected. Attack rolls against you have Disadvantage, and your attack rolls have Advantage. If a creature can somehow see you, you don't gain this benefit against the creature."

 

[Xetheral]

There have been a lot of issues with Hiding raised so far in this thread. To summarize the ones that seem most salient to me:

1. Because the the Hide action is based exclusively on the Invisible condition, it no longer does anything related to being unheard. Unless there is a separate action for that, the Hide action is pretty useless for remaining unnoticed.
2. The Concealed benefit of the Invisible condition is horribly written. As-is, it isn't actually a benefit--every creature everywhere (and their equipment and held items) already are immune to effects that require the target to be seen unless they can somehow be seen. It's possible to give this benefit functionality by making the word "somehow" do a lot of work, but at that point you're effectively just rewriting the benefit anyway. What it is probably supposed to mean and should have said was: "Concealed You and your equipment and held items cannot ordinarily be seen. Creatures with a special sense allowing them to see invisible creatures can still see you if you are in range of that special sense."
3. If the rules allow creatures who take the Hide action to lose heavy obscurement/full cover/three-quarters cover while maintaining the invisible condition, that's highly problematic, as has been discussed at length in this thread. I would additionally add that falling unconscious is not among the listed effects that cause the Invisible condition granted by the Hide action to end, and allies finding you won't end the condition either. Hopefully you didn't want to be healed....
4. Conversely, if the rules do not allow creatures who take the Hide action to lose heavy obscurement/full cover/three-quarters cover without losing the invisible condition, then the Hide action merely makes one unseen while in heavy obscurement/full cover/three-quarters cover. Note that this is useless to creatures in heavy obscurement or full cover--they were unseen already, and the Hide action doesn't help one become or remain unheard. So under this reading the Hide action only benefits creatures in three-quarters cover who would otherwise been seen if they don't hide. That's shockingly limited in scope.
5. The Invisibile condition is binary--either you have it or you don't. This is problematic because the Hide action is dependent on heavy obscurement/full cover/three-quarters cover, each of which one can have in relation in some enemies but not all enemies. (This is ameliorated somewhat by the requirement that you be out of LOS to all enemies, but there are still weird edge cases.) Additionally, any enemy finding you is enough to make you lose the Invisible condition granted by the Hide action, even if the enemy who found you is unwilling or unable to communicate that they found you to anyone else. (To emphasize just how ridiculous this is, imagine if the enemy who "finds you" is stuck on the ethereal plane.)
6. The dependence on what "enemies" can see in order to take the Hide action and on whether "enemies" find you for purposes of ending the Invisible condition granted by the Hide action has bizarre effects in relation to allies and what they can see. For example, if a character is behind full cover with their allies and takes the Hide action, they somehow disappear from their allies' sight and can no longer be healed or buffed by most effects, even though they're doing nothing to become or stay unseen by their allies.