D&D (2024) New stealth rules.

[FrogReaver]

Why what?

Just surprised me that your first post on a thread about 2024 d&d was about an edition of d&d that’s now 2 editions old and over 10 years since it was the current edition of d&d.

 

[pemerton]

Whereas the 2014 version continues until you take a potentially hostile action (or an opponent uses a specialized ability to counter it), the 2014 version can easily be negated by mundane enemy attacks.

I don't think I'm convinced the invisibility effect should end automatically, though.

In Rolemaster, invisibility (and similar effects) are lost when attacking or when attacked. It's interesting to see this come into D&D.

 

[Maxperson]

Just surprised me that your first post on a thread about 2024 d&d was about an edition of d&d that’s now 2 editions old and over 10 years since it was the current edition of d&d.

That and it was such a minority of time that D&D has been around, that it really doesn't matter at this point how it referred to invisibility.

 

[pemerton]

Just surprised me that your first post on a thread about 2024 d&d was about an edition of d&d that’s now 2 editions old and over 10 years since it was the current edition of d&d.

I was replying to a post that made an assertion about how D&D has been for the past 50 years.

In addition, these current Stealth rules seem to be broadly modelled on the revised 4e rules, so my post seems relevant for that reason also. Here are the 4e rules for remaining hidden (ie after a successful check has been made; from PHB2 p 222):

Remaining Hidden: You remain hidden as long as you meet these requirements.

Keep Out of Sight: If you no longer have any cover or concealment against an enemy, you don’t remain hidden from that enemy. You don’t need superior cover, total concealment, or to stay outside line of sight, but you do need some degree of cover or concealment to remain hidden. You can’t use another creature as cover to remain hidden.

Keep Quiet: If you speak louder than a whisper or otherwise draw attention to yourself, you don’t remain hidden from any enemy that can hear you.

Keep Still: If you move more than 2 squares during an action, you must make a new Stealth check with a –5 penalty. If you run, the penalty is –10. If any enemy’s passive Perception check beats your check result, you don’t remain hidden from that enemy.

Don’t Attack: If you attack, you don’t remain hidden.

Not Remaining Hidden: If you take an action that causes you not to remain hidden, you retain the benefits of being hidden until you resolve the action. You can’t become hidden again as part of that same action.​

The "keep out of sight" rule in 4e occupies more-or-less the same functional space as the "enemy finds you" rule cited in the OP.

That and it was such a minority of time that D&D has been around, that it really doesn't matter at this point how it referred to invisibility.

You're the one who referred to 50 years of D&D history, not me!

And given that the new rules seems to be rather similar to the 4e rules, I think it might matter.

 

[pemerton]

It doesn't matter if the spells grant real invisibility and the hiding method doesn't. The outcome is the same. The invisible person gets the three benefits as stated in the condition. The opponent knows you are there and knows where you are. They can attack you with disadvantage if they wish. How the effect is described or imagined as no ingame effect. It could be because the invisible person moves out from hiding without the opponent noticing. Or it could be because the invisible person is under the effect of the invisibility spell. You can describe them however you want but the effect is the same.

I think there are differences, though. Being able to see through a person means that they don't prevent seeing what's behind them. This seems like it is particularly relevant for Greater/Improved Invisibility.

 

[Chaosmancer]

I think you're overlooking that a substantial number of posters are trying to discuss the weird wording in particular. That's a worthwhile topic for discussion in brand new rules that are ostensibly an upgrade over the 2014 rules. And when discussing weird wording, evaluating edge cases potentially created by that wording is a fundamental part of the analysis.

Also, even if, as you suggest, we dismiss out of hand the interpretations that lead to being able to be unseeable while actively doing things that should make one seen, that still leaves several competing interpretations of how the rules work, with some posters expressing dissatisfaction with one or more of those interpretations, all of which are independently worthy of discussion.

Except, the vast majority of those people "discussing" this declared house rules on page 5. They have already decided exactly how they are going to run it.

 

[Chaosmancer]

So you're set to punish if your players try to use RAW here?

None of them will attempt anything you are considering RAW, so I won't need to tell them no. Let alone consider some sort of "punishment" like they are unruly children who need to be disciplined.

 

[FrogReaver]

I was replying to a post that made an assertion about how D&D has been for the past 50 years.

Yes. And I’m just noting that your first post in a 2024 d&d discussion inserted 4e d&d into that discussion.

 

[Micah Sweet]

In 4e D&D, the effect of the 6th level Invisibility spell is "The target is invisible until the end of your next turn. If the target attacks, the target becomes visible." It's left up to the game participants to flavour this as One Ring-style invisibility, guided by the flavour text ("A creature you choose vanishes from sight.").

The technical game term "invisibility" is also used to describe the result of a successful Stealth check to hide, various mental effects (analogous to psionic invisibility in AD&D), etc.

It seems that this recent version of 5e D&D may be going back to this 4e D&D convention around nomenclature.

It does look that way, unfortunately from my point of view.

 

[Chaosmancer]

Stepping away from the definition of "invisible" for a moment, it appears there's a another change to spell-based invisibility in the 2024 rules.

2014 Invisibility Spell: A creature you touch becomes invisible until the spell ends. Anything the target is wearing or carrying is invisible as long as it is on the target's person. The spell ends for a target that attacks or casts a spell.

2024 version (as posted by @DavyGreenwind): The Target has the Invisible condition until the spell ends. It ends early if the creature takes damage, casts a spell or makes an attack.

I don't recall this change or the reasoning for it being discussed in any of the UAs, but it seems quite significant. Whereas the 2014 version continues until you take a potentially hostile action (or an opponent uses a specialized ability to counter it), the 2014 version can easily be negated by mundane enemy attacks. This doesn't matter much if you're using invisibility to avoid detection entirely, but it makes the spell much weaker if you're trying to disengage from combat or protect a vulnerable character.

Can you post that here, because this is a screenshot from the 2024 PHB

And it says DEALS damage, not TAKES damage.