D&D (2024) Dual Wielding

[Charlaquin]

This is fiddly and unnecessarily convoluted and I don't like it.

It’s really not as convoluted as the optimizers are making it look. For the most part it works the same as it does in the 2014 rules. Attack with a Light weapon: get another attack with a different Light weapon as a bonus action, don’t add ability mod to damage on the second attack unless you have the two-weapon Fighting Style. What’s new is that if you have weapon mastery with a weapon that has the Nick mastery (so, dagger, light hammer, or scimitar), you can make the second attack without having to spend a bonus action, and now the dual wielder feat lets you use a bonus action to attack with any one-handed weapon after attacking with a Light weapon, instead of allowing you to use the two-weapon fighting rules without the weapons needing to be Light. Nothing about that is particularly difficult to understand. People are just trying to figure out how hard they can exploit the specific wording to sneak in an extra attack, or to juggle weapons between one hand and their belt to “dual-wield” whilst holding a shield the whole time. Most of this is actually a result of the rules for drawing and stowing weapons being much more generous now, not the various features that enable dual-wielding. Also, trying to rules lawyer the wording of rules we’re getting secondhand is extra tricky.

 

[fluffybunbunkittens]

I could maybe see it the other way.

And in the case of TWF style, it really can be argued both ways whether it applies.

I'm picking my side based on the fact that they changed the style's wording away from playtest version talking about only applying to Light property extra attack. And also because it gets goddamn messy to sometimes apply the modifier and sometimes not, when the player took the style to not worry about that sort of stuff...

 

[Crimson Longinus]

It’s really not as convoluted as the optimizers are making it look. For the most part it works the same as it does in the 2014 rules. Attack with a Light weapon: get another attack with a different Light weapon as a bonus action, don’t add ability mod to damage on the second attack unless you have the two-weapon Fighting Style. What’s new is that if you have weapon mastery with a weapon that has the Nick mastery (so, dagger, light hammer, or scimitar), you can make the second attack without having to spend a bonus action, and now the dual wielder feat lets you use a bonus action to attack with any one-handed weapon after attacking with a Light weapon, instead of allowing you to use the two-weapon fighting rules without the weapons needing to be Light. Nothing about that is particularly difficult to understand. People are just trying to figure out how hard they can exploit the specific wording to sneak in an extra attack, or to juggle weapons between one hand and their belt to “dual-wield” whilst holding a shield the whole time. Most of this is actually a result of the rules for drawing and stowing weapons being much more generous now, not the various features that enable dual-wielding. Also, trying to rules lawyer the wording of rules we’re getting secondhand is extra tricky.

But that whole rules lawyering thing is happening because the rules are shoddily worded. Also, I didn't like the previous iteration of dual wielding either. I wanted it to be simpler or at least more elegant, not more complicated, so this doesn't seem like an improvement to me.

 

[Charlaquin]

But that whole rules lawyering thing is happening because the rules are shoddily worded. Also, I didn't like the previous iteration of dual wielding either. I wanted it to be simpler or at least more elegant, not more complicated, so this doesn't seem like an improvement to me.

I don’t think it is more complicated. In fact, I think it’s less complicated. Again, the rules lawyering is mostly a result of the rules for weapon swapping, not the rules for dual wielding. And the rules for weapon swapping are also simpler, they’re just less restrictive and therefore more open to exploitation.

 

[Crimson Longinus]

I don’t think it is more complicated. In fact, I think it’s less complicated. Again, the rules lawyering is mostly a result of the rules for weapon swapping, not the rules for dual wielding. And the rules for weapon swapping are also simpler, they’re just less restrictive and therefore more open to exploitation.

I mean, if it results weird rules-lawyery weapon swapping shenanigans, it is not "simple" to me. And most of these seem to be related to dual wielding somehow, so it is part of the mess. They could have written the rules so that this sort of thing unambiguously was not possible.

And this definitely is not elegant. Not adding your attribute mod already is an ugly balance kludge in my eyes, this weapon swapping nonsense is an abomination.

More I hear of this rules update, more it seems like a failure as a clean-up of the rules. For every weirdness fixed there is new one which is somehow even worse.

 

[FrogReaver]

And in the case of TWF style, it really can be argued both ways whether it applies.

I'm picking my side based on the fact that they changed the style's wording away from playtest version talking about only applying to Light property extra attack. And also because it gets goddamn messy to sometimes apply the modifier and sometimes not, when the player took the style to not worry about that sort of stuff...

Also, if it was intended to just be when you use the light property extra attack there were much more concise, clear and straightforward ways to write it.

 

[fluffybunbunkittens]

Also, if it was intended to just be when you use the light property extra attack there were much more concise, clear and straightforward ways to write it.

Yep. Playtest TWF style was: 'When you make the extra attack granted by the Light weapon property, you can add your ability modifier to the damage of the extra attack.' which is relaxingly straight-forward compared to the 2024 entries.

 

[Kinematics]

Yeah, when I wrote up the original thread post, I deliberately avoided any interaction with weapon swapping. It is solely about how dual wielding works, and what options you have. It's not intended as an optimization guide. All the different forms have valid use cases.

 

[mellored]

I mean, if it results weird rules-lawyery weapon swapping shenanigans, it is not "simple" to me.

That is a mistake.

Any DM should say two weapon fighting takes two weapons.
And dual wielder requires dual wielding.

Not adding your attribute mod already is an ugly balance kludge in my eyes,

I agree. More so that it slows the game down to roll an attack for 1d4 damage. But it's much the same as it was in 2014.

Personally I would rather it be...

Light: Once per turn, when you hit and deal damage with a Light weapon, you can add the damage die damage from a second Light weapon you are wielding.

Dual Wielder: +1 Str or Dex.
Any weapon without the Heavy property is considered a Light weapon for you.
You can draw and stow 2 weapons at a time.

And Nick weapons need a different mastery.

failure as a clean-up of the rules. For every weirdness fixed there is new one which is somehow even worse.

There are a lot of fixes and cleaner wording. But that means no one is arguing over them.

There is not a single thread about conjure fey summoning to have 8 pixies polymorph your party into tyrannosaurus, and what happens to their concentration if the time runs out, since they didn't die.
Or what happens to you when you get hit with power word kill when wild shaped.

You don't need 100's of form posts for some that is working well.

 

[WanderingMystic]

Where do you get this from? I see nothing stating TWF applies to dual wielder and as you stated it is a different bonus action.

Just to let you know the Dungeon Dudes asked this question at Gencon and were told by Perkins that you get TWF on both the attack from nic and the attack from Duel welder