D&D (2024) Dual Wielding

[Kinematics]

Does it apply to all damage?
I.e. smite, hunter's mark, Divine favor

Ah, true. It says "on any damage die", so yes, it should apply to any extra damage boosts.

That's a tiny bit better. It's about +14% per d6, rather than about +4-5% per d10 or d12. A maul with Hunter's Mark or Divine Smite is getting about a 10% boost after factoring in mods.

Meanwhile, TWF is worth about 30% before level 5, and 20% after it, once factoring in stat mods.

 

[Chaosmancer]

Shortsword has Vex

Huh, sorry for getting those mixed up

 

[Chaosmancer]

If you only attack once, topple won't add any damage.

Assuming 2 attacks, and 50% chance to hit / save.

Base
(2d6+4) * .5 = 5.5
*2 = 11

Graze
2d6 * 50% + 4 = 7.5
*2 = 15

Topple
1st attack: 5.5
(50% + 75%) / 2 = 0.625
2nd attack: (2d6+4) * 0.625 = 6.875
= 12.375

So Graze does more damage.
Though obviously Topple has other benefits.

Yeah, I think a lot of people underestimate Graze. It is less about DPR and more about consistency. No one is going to feel bad dealing 8 guaranteed damage no matter their chances to hit.

 

[FrogReaver]

Yeah, I think a lot of people underestimate Graze. It is less about DPR and more about consistency. No one is going to feel bad dealing 8 guaranteed damage no matter their chances to hit.

That's enough to kill a goblin, which also happens to trigger GWM bonus attack

 

[EzekielRaiden]

Shortsword has nick, but that's nit-picking.

The issue is that Nick allows the Light Weapon attack as part of the attack action. The Light weapon attack requires a second weapon. So, if you attack with the Rapier.... you can't get a bonus attack. And if you attack with the Shortsword.... you can't get the bonus action attack. And Dual-Wielder is specifically written to have the attack of a Light weapon trigger the bonus action attack.

I know a lot of people claim you can use the same weapon for every attack, but I don't buy that interpretation.

Alright.

I still think it is (clearly) a nerf to Dual Wielder that you can't wield two non-Light weapons. I get that Nick requires the Light property, so for optimization purposes you would always want to have a light weapon in at least one hand. Personally, I think Nick should not be tied to the Light property, but that's another separate gripe.

Edit:

Here's how I would have written a 5.5e Dual Wielder feat.

Dual Wielder
Prerequisite: Must be proficient with at least one martial finesse weapon, and 4th level or possess the Weapon Mastery feature.

You may use the rules for dual wielding so long as both weapons have either the light or finesse property, and you can make the associated additional attack as part of the Attack action, rather than as a Bonus action. This allows you to use your Bonus action for something else, if you desire. Further, any finesse weapon you wield may use its normal mastery property, or Nick, but you can only make use of one mastery property each round, chosen when you attack with that weapon.

You also gain a +1 bonus to AC while wielding two one-handed weapons with either the light or finesse property, and any time you would be able to draw a weapon, you may draw two one-handed weapons, so long as each weapon has either the light or finesse property.

 

[FrogReaver]

Does it apply to all damage?
I.e. smite, hunter's mark, Divine favor

Otherwise 2d6 turns from 7 to 8 damage. So +1 damage in the best case.
Might as well take the +1 AC if that's all.

If you only attack once, topple won't add any damage.

Assuming 2 attacks, and 50% chance to hit / save.

Base
(2d6+4) * .5 = 5.5
*2 = 11

Graze
2d6 * 50% + 4 = 7.5
*2 = 15

Topple
1st attack: 5.5
(50% + 75%) / 2 = 0.625
2nd attack: (2d6+4) * 0.625 = 6.875
= 12.375

So Graze does more damage.
Though obviously Topple has other benefits.

Yea, under real game parameters Graze will virtually always be better for you dealing damage than Topple (I just did the Math and couldn't realistically get topple higher). It's also going to play alot better with GWM bonus action attack. Prone to grant advantage to your melee allies seems solid though, but advantage is much easier to get in 2024 than 2014 (and wasn't exactly hard then either).

The more important benefit IMO is limiting the opponents movement. Makes acting like a tank alot easier.

 

[ECMO3]

Alright.

I still think it is (clearly) a nerf to Dual Wielder that you can't wield two non-Light weapons.

You can, you just have to wield a light weapon as well for at least one attack.

 

[WanderingMystic]

Alright.

I still think it is (clearly) a nerf to Dual Wielder that you can't wield two non-Light weapons. I get that Nick requires the Light property, so for optimization purposes you would always want to have a light weapon in at least one hand. Personally, I think Nick should not be tied to the Light property, but that's another separate gripe.

Edit:

Here's how I would have written a 5.5e Dual Wielder feat.

Dual Wielder
Prerequisite: Must be proficient with at least one martial finesse weapon, and 4th level or possess the Weapon Mastery feature.

You may use the rules for dual wielding so long as both weapons have either the light or finesse property, and you can make the associated additional attack as part of the Attack action, rather than as a Bonus action. This allows you to use your Bonus action for something else, if you desire. Further, any finesse weapon you wield may use its normal mastery property, or Nick, but you can only make use of one mastery property each round, chosen when you attack with that weapon.

You also gain a +1 bonus to AC while wielding two one-handed weapons with either the light or finesse property, and any time you would be able to draw a weapon, you may draw two one-handed weapons, so long as each weapon has either the light or finesse property.

That is way to much for the feat, also remember that all of our feats give us a +1 to a stat like dex for this one.

The bonus for the dual weld feat has moved from welding 2 d8 weapons to having a 4th attack (assuming mastery) which is much better in my opinion. 2-3 bonus damage on average from the larger weapon to and extra 1d6 (possibly+modifier) damage is a vast improvement even if it does take your bonus action.

What we need is a rule on rapiers that state that if you wielding a dagger in your off hand the rapier counts as being light. How ever with how amazing defensive dualists is I would be using that and the great ac bump instead of the minor damage bump.

 

[Crimson Longinus]

They didn't raise GWF's damage higher than 1&2=3 for fear of the greatsword... But then they gave greatsword Graze, which is not an appealing mastery, so it's unlikely you'll see people use greatsword in the first place. What a combo.

(here's your tiny reward for failing, it's of no use if you angle to get advantage like you should, like if you just Toppled a target and hit them again)

How did they change great weapon fighting style?

I always hated it because it was weak and because it was inconsistent. Duelling gives flat bonus but gives GW dice manipulation. Why? And it is annoying that duelling exists at all. Whole point of two handers is that they hit hard, but then they just give one handers a style that gives them same damage output! If these needs to exists, then both should just be a flat damage bonus so that it is consistent and that the GW retains superior damage.

 

[Shardstone]

A lot of people are really focusing too much on the math, which is an amateur mistake in game design. What matters is the feel more so than the math, with the math still being important of course, but the feel has to be "right."

Great Weapon Master: When you make an attack with a Melee weapon that you are holding with two hands, you can treat any 1 or 2 on a damage die as 3. The weapon must have the Two-Handed or Versatile weapon property to gain this benefit.

^ This is good design because it makes the weapons feel better. No one feels good rolling a 1 or 2 for damage. Knowing you'll at least do 3 damage, or 6 with a Greatsword, is nice. It feels like a strong baseline and to a lot of people, that is valuable -- more so then having +2 damage (which achieves the same thing but isn't as pleasing as knowing those 1's and 2's are actually 3's).

There is an art to game design as much as there is a science. Consistency and feeling good are part of that art. WotC doesn't always achieve this, but here, they 100% did.