D&D (2024) Dual Wielding

[ECMO3]

Hmmm.... This might actually still be possible with Crossbow Expert. I would need to see the wording on it, but I see your point.

The nick attack with the scimitar would not have your dex bonus if you only had XBE but not TWF.

Eh. That's a lot of niche dropping of weapons, which you then have to go and pick up, for a few points of damage (3 or 4 on average?)

Or keep extras on hand, or just pick them up off the ground as your free interaction.

Also, I think I can do one better by starting with a Greataxe instead of a Greatsword and throwing a Cleave in there as well in addition to the other 4 attacks.

 

[ECMO3]

I agree that is hard to remember and annoying, but it is absolutely essential. Without that, Shortswords and other d6 light weapons become overly dominant.

2d6+6 is better than 1d8+5 and 2d6+3, and if it didn't cost a fighting style to get, then you would take Defensive and get +1 AC. In that scenario, a Longsword duelist dealing 1d8+5 or 9.5 damage is only 1 AC higher, for 3.5 damage less. And Greatsword and Greataxe get laughed out of the room.

It could be possible with other changes, but ONLY removing the need for the Fighting Style would cause a lot of imbalance.

Statistically you are right, but it is not like the game will be broken if one style is way better than another (as was the case in 5e). Also the GWM feat and the weapon masteries on heavy weapons are going to drive up the damage quite a bit after extra attack comes online.

One of my DMs in going to 2024 is just going to houserule everyone has the equivalent of Two-Weapon Fighting at level 1. All classes, all races all players. This will make light weapons very dominant statistically, but that is not going to hurt the game I don't think, any more than it hurts the game for a blowgun to do 1 damage while a Heavy Crossbow is 1d10.

 

[Chaosmancer]

Why? Wouldn't Rapier + Scimitar be quite nice, given Scimitar has Nick and thus allows the fourth attack?

Shortsword has nick, but that's nit-picking.

The issue is that Nick allows the Light Weapon attack as part of the attack action. The Light weapon attack requires a second weapon. So, if you attack with the Rapier.... you can't get a bonus attack. And if you attack with the Shortsword.... you can't get the bonus action attack. And Dual-Wielder is specifically written to have the attack of a Light weapon trigger the bonus action attack.

I know a lot of people claim you can use the same weapon for every attack, but I don't buy that interpretation.

 

[Chaosmancer]

Mearls suggested on patreon that dropping the damage die a step ir two would be a cleaner solution. Thoughts?

At that point you just erase all light weapons and just use daggers, which are light, finesse, thrown and d4's. And since 1-handed weapons are usually d8's, I just see d6 weapons vanishing completely.

Mathematically, it could work. being able to attack for 2d4+6 is 11 damage, greatsword gets 2d6+3 or 10 damage, one-handed can use shields. The full combo here would be 4d4+20 or 30 damage, while Greatsword with the feat is pulling 4d6+16 or 30 without the bonus action attack that might trigger. If it was actually daggers and you could mix with throwing them, with the extra AC or whatever else you wanted for the Fighting Style... It could theoretically work. In practice, I think the GW Fighting Style needs a buff anyways.

 

[Chaosmancer]

Honestly you could just halve the damage but at that point I think dropping the modifier is smoother. Mathematically what you're really trying to do is shave about 2-3 damage off the attack (since that's what's relevant before 4th level with Dual Wielder). If your extra attack is with a short sword, a d6 and an average of 3.5 and a modifier of +3, you're getting 6.5 with the extra attack. So dropping a d6 to a d4 doesn't get the same amount of damage reduction as dropping the modifier does.

But that's 2 damage, or 4 damage per turn with Nick + Bonus Acton invested. A weapon mastery property you get once per turn + using up your bonus action is a bit hefty. Is having that 4 extra damage from levels 1-3 (if we use the die drop model over the modifier drop model) really that serious? I'm just not sure. It helps in edge cases against weak enemies like goblins or things that'll have between 10-15 hit points, but ultimately that damage is small potatoes at higher levels, especially given the nature of your other potential Weapon Masteries and Fighting Styles.

I wouldn't consider Nick in terms of the damage, until it allows you to get that 4th attack. Nick's advantage is the freeing up of the Bonus action to be used for another purpose.

 

[Chaosmancer]

Statistically you are right, but it is not like the game will be broken if one style is way better than another (as was the case in 5e). Also the GWM feat and the weapon masteries on heavy weapons are going to drive up the damage quite a bit after extra attack comes online.

One of my DMs in going to 2024 is just going to houserule everyone has the equivalent of Two-Weapon Fighting at level 1. All classes, all races all players. This will make light weapons very dominant statistically, but that is not going to hurt the game I don't think, any more than it hurts the game for a blowgun to do 1 damage while a Heavy Crossbow is 1d10.

Oh, I don't think it would "harm" the game per se, it just is undesirable to me to see a style immediately become so dominant.

 

[Kinematics]

In practice, I think the GW Fighting Style needs a buff anyways.

Yeah, GWF is pretty horrible. Old GWF made a 1d10 weapon's average increase from 5.5 to 6.3, which was already pretty weak. New GWF makes a 1d10 weapon's average increase from 5.5 to 5.8. Get literally anything else and it'll be more useful. Heck, get the Unarmed fighting style on your greataxe main and it'll probably still be more useful than getting GWF.

 

[fluffybunbunkittens]

They didn't raise GWF's damage higher than 1&2=3 for fear of the greatsword... But then they gave greatsword Graze, which is not an appealing mastery, so it's unlikely you'll see people use greatsword in the first place. What a combo.

(here's your tiny reward for failing, it's of no use if you angle to get advantage like you should, like if you just Toppled a target and hit them again)

 

[Charlaquin]

Shortsword has nick, but that's nit-picking.

Shortsword has Vex

 

[mellored]

They didn't raise GWF's damage higher than 1&2=3 for fear of the greatsword...

Does it apply to all damage?
I.e. smite, hunter's mark, Divine favor

Otherwise 2d6 turns from 7 to 8 damage. So +1 damage in the best case.
Might as well take the +1 AC if that's all.

sure you'd get more damage out of Toppling a target and hitting them again

If you only attack once, topple won't add any damage.

Assuming 2 attacks, and 50% chance to hit / save.

Base
(2d6+4) * .5 = 5.5
*2 = 11

Graze
2d6 * 50% + 4 = 7.5
*2 = 15

Topple
1st attack: 5.5
(50% + 75%) / 2 = 0.625
2nd attack: (2d6+4) * 0.625 = 6.875
= 12.375

So Graze does more damage.
Though obviously Topple has other benefits.