D&D (2024) Dual Wielding

[mellored]

Why? Wouldn't Rapier + Scimitar be quite nice, given Scimitar has Nick and thus allows the fourth attack?

You need to attack with a different Light weapon (RAI in a different hand) to trigger Nick

Martial Light weapons include
Short sword (d6 vex)
Hand crossbow (d6 vex, 30')
Scimitar (d6 nick)

Simple Light weapon
Club (d4 slow, Str)
Dagger (d4 Nick, 20')
Light Hammer (d4 Nick, Str)
Sickel (d4 Nick, Str)

Rapier is not a light weapon.

 

[Nefermandias]

Well I’m convinced. I’ve spent the last 30mins trying to find a better explanation and doesn’t seem one exists.

Jeremy Crawford clarified that the Ability Modifier does indeed apply to the damage of the Dual Wielder feat.

 

[Crimson Longinus]

I agree that is hard to remember and annoying, but it is absolutely essential. Without that, Shortswords and other d6 light weapons become overly dominant.

2d6+6 is better than 1d8+5 and 2d6+3, and if it didn't cost a fighting style to get, then you would take Defensive and get +1 AC. In that scenario, a Longsword duelist dealing 1d8+5 or 9.5 damage is only 1 AC higher, for 3.5 damage less. And Greatsword and Greataxe get laughed out of the room.

It could be possible with other changes, but ONLY removing the need for the Fighting Style would cause a lot of imbalance.

I know. I just wish this could be handled differently. And I don't like the fighting styles in the first place.

 

[Shardstone]

I agree that is hard to remember and annoying, but it is absolutely essential. Without that, Shortswords and other d6 light weapons become overly dominant.

2d6+6 is better than 1d8+5 and 2d6+3, and if it didn't cost a fighting style to get, then you would take Defensive and get +1 AC. In that scenario, a Longsword duelist dealing 1d8+5 or 9.5 damage is only 1 AC higher, for 3.5 damage less. And Greatsword and Greataxe get laughed out of the room.

It could be possible with other changes, but ONLY removing the need for the Fighting Style would cause a lot of imbalance.

Mearls suggested on patreon that dropping the damage die a step ir two would be a cleaner solution. Thoughts?

 

[Crimson Longinus]

Mearls suggested on patreon that dropping the damage die a step ir two would be a cleaner solution. Thoughts?

I was thinking something similar. Like daggers and other d4 weapons would be the only weapon you could make off-hand bonus attacks as a default, and what feats and such focusing on dual wielding would do would be to allow using better weapons.

But I'm not sure it would be enough. Then again, I think action+bonus action should do more damage than just an action, especially as 5.5 seems to have more uses for bonus actions.

 

[FrogReaver]

Jeremy Crawford clarified that the Ability Modifier does indeed apply to the damage of the Dual Wielder feat.

I’m glad he agrees this time. But he’s given too many bad rulings in the past.

 

[Shardstone]

I was thinking something similar. Like daggers and other d4 weapons would be the only weapon you could make off-hand bonus attacks as a default, and what feats and such focusing on dual wielding would do would be to allow using better weapons.

But I'm not sure it would be enough. Then again, I think action+bonus action should do more damage than just an action, especially as 5.5 seems to have more uses for bonus actions.

Honestly you could just halve the damage but at that point I think dropping the modifier is smoother. Mathematically what you're really trying to do is shave about 2-3 damage off the attack (since that's what's relevant before 4th level with Dual Wielder). If your extra attack is with a short sword, a d6 and an average of 3.5 and a modifier of +3, you're getting 6.5 with the extra attack. So dropping a d6 to a d4 doesn't get the same amount of damage reduction as dropping the modifier does.

But that's 2 damage, or 4 damage per turn with Nick + Bonus Acton invested. A weapon mastery property you get once per turn + using up your bonus action is a bit hefty. Is having that 4 extra damage from levels 1-3 (if we use the die drop model over the modifier drop model) really that serious? I'm just not sure. It helps in edge cases against weak enemies like goblins or things that'll have between 10-15 hit points, but ultimately that damage is small potatoes at higher levels, especially given the nature of your other potential Weapon Masteries and Fighting Styles.

 

[Pauln6]

You need to attack with a different Light weapon (RAI in a different hand) to trigger Nick

Martial Light weapons include
Short sword (d6 vex)
Hand crossbow (d6 vex, 30')
Scimitar (d6 nick)

Simple Light weapon
Club (d4 slow, Str)
Dagger (d4 Nick, 20')
Light Hammer (d4 Nick, Str)
Sickel (d4 Nick, Str)

Rapier is not a light weapon.

I wasn't sure how much I approve of giving nick to the scimitar but from the wording, nick only works with two light weapons so if you take the feat to attack with the classic historical combo of rapier and dagger, (or the cheesy combo of scimitar/short sword and rapier) the benefits are questionable. The bonus action attack has to be with your non-light weapon (presumably you only have to attack once with each weapon though so you can mix and match on multiple attacks). So does the unavailability of nick mean that nobody investing in the feat is ever going to fight with a rapier and dagger? That seems a bit counter-intuitive.

I know Level Up has also given weapons tentative properties that apply to the weapons themselves, so a parrying dagger can add 1d4 to your AC against a single melee attack that you can see, which also applies to short swords. I might try using the new weapon masteries alongside those just to see how much shenanigans we can get up to.

 

[fluffybunbunkittens]

I wasn't sure how much I approve of giving nick to the scimitar

Their idea of what a scimitar is has always been bizarre.

So does the unavailability of nick mean that nobody investing in the feat is ever going to fight with a rapier and dagger?

You can (though you need 3 weapons, which is super great for your magic weapon needs):
Attack with dagger1, stow it
(ExtraAttack with rapier in main hand)
draw dagger2 (as part of Extra Attack or with free object interaction), Nick
Dual-Wield attack with rapier

On a positive side, at least this avoids the unrealness of dual-wielding rapiers?

 

[Pauln6]

Their idea of what a scimitar is has always been bizarre.


You can (though you need 3 weapons, which is super great for your magic weapon needs):
Attack with dagger1, stow it
(ExtraAttack with rapier in main hand)
draw dagger2 (as part of Extra Attack or with free object interaction), Nick
Dual-Wield attack with rapier

On a positive side, at least this avoids the unrealness of dual-wielding rapiers?

Lol yeah that's so lame! Fold some alternative benefits into Defensive Duelist or something. The fighting style deserves some love.