D&D (2024) Dual Wielding

[mellored]

Just to let you know the Dungeon Dudes asked this question at Gencon and were told by Perkins that you get TWF on both the attack from nic and the attack from Duel welder

Reference

Post from Treantmonk's Temple

 

[Pauln6]

So essentially the things 'fixed' by the rules change were:

Weapon Mastery let's you fight with two light weapons without using your bonus action but you can only draw OR stow one weapon per turn as part of your attack but you can draw OR stow a second weapon as your free object interaction.

You can no longer dual wield two non-light weapons with the feat. Further, the non-light weapon must he used for your bonus action attack.

Ignoring all the wish fulfilment nonsense, is that gist?

 

[Chaosmancer]

Is this comparison "what the current feat would be if you could use two non-light weapons"? Or is it comparing two non-light weapons to comparing one and one + the new feat stuff?

Because I was making the former comparison.

I'm not sure I follow what you are asking.

I was comparing dual-wielding two, non-light weapons (one in each hand) which is three attacks, to dual-wielding two light weapons, one of which has Nick, which allows for four attacks.

I did not compare this to weilding one light and one non-light weapon, because that is the worst version compared to the other two.

 

[Chaosmancer]

But they do not have to have nick as long as the other weapon does. For example a hand crossbow and a scimitar.

Attack with your crossbow (attack with a light weapon)
Attack again (with either your crossbow or your scimitar)
nick with your scimitar
bonus action attack with your hand crossbow.

In this case all 4 of them get your modifier to damage if you have two-weapon Fighting Feat. If you have the dual wielder feat you can do the same thing, with the same weapons or any other combo of light weapons as long as one is nick, but with dual wielder you do not get to add your mod on the bonus action attack.

Hmmm.... This might actually still be possible with Crossbow Expert. I would need to see the wording on it, but I see your point.

There are also some crazy dual wielding combos that require juggling.

Enter combat empty handed.
Attack with a greatsword, drawing as part of the attack
Drop greatsword, draw scimitar as one free draw.
attack with shortsword, drawing as part of the attack
nick with scimitar.
drop both your weapons
attack with a longsword Versatile using bonus action drawing the weapon as part of the attack

Eh. That's a lot of niche dropping of weapons, which you then have to go and pick up, for a few points of damage (3 or 4 on average?)

 

[Chaosmancer]

Is the Light attack limited to once per turn, or once per Attack action?

Attack action
TWF (Nick)
Action Surge -> Attack action
TWF (bonus action) ?

I'd be fine with that, since it is a new attack action, and is still only 4 attacks

 

[Charlaquin]

So essentially the things 'fixed' by the rules change were:

Weapon Mastery let's you fight with two light weapons without using your bonus action but you can only draw OR stow one weapon per turn as part of your attack but you can draw OR stow a second weapon as your free object interaction.

You can no longer dual wield two non-light weapons with the feat. Further, the non-light weapon must he used for your bonus action attack.

Ignoring all the wish fulfilment nonsense, is that gist?

I don’t now for sure, but I don’t think “free object interaction” is a thing anymore. It was always kind of this weird thing, where it wasn’t really clear what counted as a free object interaction and what required the Use an Object action, other than drawing and stowing weapons, which was the one thing it was explicitly for. And at least in my experience, almost everyone just handwaved drawing and stowing weapons anyway.

Now, drawing and stowing weapons is part of the attack action. You get to draw or stow one weapon each time you attack as part of that action, and you can do it before or after making the attack. I imagine most other things that used to sometimes be considered to take up your “free object interaction” and other times just got handwaved, like taking a potion out from your pack, will now likewise be part of the Utilize action, and the concept of a free object interaction will be quietly deleted.

 

[Chaosmancer]

I also wish that regardless of how dual wielding otherwise worked, they'd have done away with sometimes not adding your ability modifier. That is hard to remember and annoying to write down on your character sheet.

I agree that is hard to remember and annoying, but it is absolutely essential. Without that, Shortswords and other d6 light weapons become overly dominant.

2d6+6 is better than 1d8+5 and 2d6+3, and if it didn't cost a fighting style to get, then you would take Defensive and get +1 AC. In that scenario, a Longsword duelist dealing 1d8+5 or 9.5 damage is only 1 AC higher, for 3.5 damage less. And Greatsword and Greataxe get laughed out of the room.

It could be possible with other changes, but ONLY removing the need for the Fighting Style would cause a lot of imbalance.

 

[fluffybunbunkittens]

I don’t think “free object interaction” is a thing anymore.

No no, that's still there. It doesn't really give any examples of what it applies to, but it'd be hard to argue that your weapon isn't an object you're interacting with.

'You can interact with one object or feature of the environment for free. For example, you could open a door. If you want to interact with a second object, you need to take the Utilize action.'

omg, Thief Rogues can open TWO doors without losing their main action!

 

[Charlaquin]

No no, that's still there.

It gives fewer examples of what it applies to, but it'd be hard to argue that draw/stow weapon isn't an object.

How bizarre…

 

[EzekielRaiden]

I'm not sure I follow what you are asking.

I was comparing dual-wielding two, non-light weapons (one in each hand) which is three attacks, to dual-wielding two light weapons, one of which has Nick, which allows for four attacks.

I did not compare this to weilding one light and one non-light weapon, because that is the worst version compared to the other two.

Why? Wouldn't Rapier + Scimitar be quite nice, given Scimitar has Nick and thus allows the fourth attack?