D&D (2024) Dual Wielding

[ECMO3]

While true that they are light, they don't have Nick, and Crossbow expert is better for getting a bonus action hand crossbow attack.

But they do not have to have nick as long as the other weapon does. For example a hand crossbow and a scimitar.

Attack with your crossbow (attack with a light weapon)
Attack again (with either your crossbow or your scimitar)
nick with your scimitar
bonus action attack with your hand crossbow.

In this case all 4 of them get your modifier to damage if you have two-weapon Fighting Feat. If you have the dual wielder feat you can do the same thing, with the same weapons or any other combo of light weapons as long as one is nick, but with dual wielder you do not get to add your mod on the bonus action attack.

There are also some crazy dual wielding combos that require juggling.

Enter combat empty handed.
Attack with a greatsword, drawing as part of the attack
Drop greatsword, draw scimitar as one free draw.
attack with shortsword, drawing as part of the attack
nick with scimitar.
drop both your weapons
attack with a longsword Versatile using bonus action drawing the weapon as part of the attack

 

[Kinematics]

In this 5th form I do not think you get the mod damage for the bonus action scimitar attack.

The reason is twofold. The TWF fighting style only gives you the mod bonus based on attacks you make using the light property and this attack comes from the dual wielding feat, not the light property. Second, the Dual Wielding Feat explicitly says you do not get the mod bonus (specific overiding general).

This is the same with the 4th form when using the battle axe. No mod damage on the bonus action attack regardless of the fighting style feat you have.

Requoting the fighting style:

When you make an extra attack as a result of using a weapon that has the Light property, you can add your ability modifier to the damage of that attack if you aren't already adding it to the damage.

Requoting from the feat:

Enhanced Dual Wielding. When you take the Attack action on your turn and attack with a weapon that has the Light property, you can make one extra attack as a Bonus Action later on the same turn with a different weapon, which must be a Melee weapon that lacks the Two-Handed property. You don't add your ability modifier to the extra attack's damage unless that modifier is negative.

Dual Wielder only gives you the extra attack when you attack with a weapon that has the Light property. Thus, the extra attack is the result of using a weapon that has the Light property. That's precisely what Two-Weapon Fighting applies to.

You don't get the extra attack just because you have the Dual Wielder feat. For example, if you attack with a longsword, you don't get an extra attack.

Also:

The TWF fighting style only gives you the mod bonus based on attacks you make using the light property
...
This is the same with the 4th form when using the battle axe. No mod damage on the bonus action attack regardless of the fighting style feat you have.

This is incorrect. It doesn't give you the bonus on attacks you make using the Light property. It gives you the bonus on attacks that were the result of attacking with a weapon with the Light property. So this bonus applies to the battleaxe as well. It's not Light, but that doesn't matter, because the attack was granted as the result of attacking with a Light weapon.

Second, the Dual Wielding Feat explicitly says you do not get the mod bonus (specific overiding general).

The Light weapon property says the same thing. This merely reinforces that it works the same way as the normal extra attack granted by using a weapon with the Light property. In this case, TWF is the override.

 

[Bacon Bits]

It's an extra attack, so you're less likely to miss out on your Sneak Attack completely, but... you already have stuff to do with your bonus action, the minor increase is not worth it.

While a Rogue always has stuff to do with a bonus action, I think gaining the option to make a third attack is worthwhile. That was the primary reason Polearm Master was such a dominant feat in 5.14.

 

[Bacon Bits]

This is incorrect. It doesn't give you the bonus on attacks you make using the Light property. It gives you the bonus on attacks that were the result of attacking with a weapon with the Light property.

This is torturing the language. There is no way they wrote it with this level of precision. They would need to have "make" and "result" be defined keywords in the glossary at this rate.

 

[fluffybunbunkittens]

While a Rogue always has stuff to do with a bonus action, I think gaining the option to make a third attack is worthwhile. That was the primary reason Polearm Master was such a dominant feat in 5.14.

Polearms have other benefits over Rogue shortswords, and people using them don't tend to have other turn-to-turn bonus actions available to them. It's not that Rogue couldn't use a reduced chance to miss out on their sneak attack completely - it's about the opportunity cost of it taking a feat to do so (especially with this being a straight Rogue, so no fighting style).

They could just pick up, say, Piercer for the same slight increase in average damage, that doesn't interfere with their bonus action economy at all (and works from any range).

 

[Shardstone]

Is this comparison "what the current feat would be if you could use two non-light weapons"? Or is it comparing two non-light weapons to comparing one and one + the new feat stuff?

Because I was making the former comparison.

Two non-light weapons was cool, I'm not quite sure why they nerfed it. Being able to dual-wield two spears was cool, or two maces.

 

[Shardstone]

But they do not have to have nick as long as the other weapon does. For example a hand crossbow and a scimitar.

Attack with your crossbow (attack with a light weapon)
Attack again (with either your crossbow or your scimitar)
nick with your scimitar
bonus action attack with your hand crossbow.

In this case all 4 of them get your modifier to damage if you have two-weapon Fighting Feat. If you have the dual wielder feat you can do the same thing, with the same weapons or any other combo of light weapons as long as one is nick, but with dual wielder you do not get to add your mod on the bonus action attack.

There are also some crazy dual wielding combos that require juggling.

Enter combat empty handed.
Attack with a greatsword, drawing as part of the attack
Drop greatsword, draw scimitar as one free draw.
attack with shortsword, drawing as part of the attack
nick with scimitar.
drop both your weapons
attack with a longsword Versatile using bonus action drawing the weapon as part of the attack

I think these juggles are cool tbh.

 

[FrogReaver]

Requoting the fighting style:

Requoting from the feat:


Dual Wielder only gives you the extra attack when you attack with a weapon that has the Light property. Thus, the extra attack is the result of using a weapon that has the Light property. That's precisely what Two-Weapon Fighting applies to.

You don't get the extra attack just because you have the Dual Wielder feat. For example, if you attack with a longsword, you don't get an extra attack.

Also:

This is incorrect. It doesn't give you the bonus on attacks you make using the Light property. It gives you the bonus on attacks that were the result of attacking with a weapon with the Light property. So this bonus applies to the battleaxe as well. It's not Light, but that doesn't matter, because the attack was granted as the result of attacking with a Light weapon.

The Light weapon property says the same thing. This merely reinforces that it works the same way as the normal extra attack granted by using a weapon with the Light property. In this case, TWF is the override.

I’m with you. As long as you dual wield attack with a light weapon then you should get mod. That seems to be the plain reading of those texts. That said, it’s convoluted and confusing as heck. They really should have done a better job!

 

[fluffybunbunkittens]

That said, it’s convoluted and confusing as heck. They really should have done a better job!

Yep. They purposefully changed Two-Weapon Fighting style's text from the playtest (from 'when you make an extra attack granted by the Light property' to 'when you make an extra attack as a result of using a weapon that has the Light property'), which must be to cover Dual-Wielder... but that is still open to arguments.

'Light property gives you an extra attack as a result of using a Light weapon, but Dual-Wielder gives you an extra attack as a result of having Dual-Wielder! and Dual-Wielder separately points out you don't get your stat mod to the bonus attack!' kind of a thing.

 

[FrogReaver]

Yep. They purposefully changed Two-Weapon Fighting style's text from the playtest (from 'when you make an extra attack granted by the Light property' to 'when you make an extra attack as a result of using a weapon that has the Light property'), which must be to cover Dual-Wielder... but that is still open to arguments.

'Light property gives you an extra attack as a result of using a Light weapon, but Dual-Wielder gives you an extra attack as a result of having Dual-Wielder! and Dual-Wielder separately points out you don't get your stat mod to the bonus attack!' kind of a thing.

Well, dual wielder feat you can make a bonus action attack with a long sword (meets all weapon requirements as long as your other weapon is light). It just won’t get mod per the dual wielder text. Same with a light weapon except TWF style covers that for dual wielder as well - so ultimately you get mod.