D&D (2024) Are single class martials still going to be viable in 2024?

[FrogReaver]

I would disagree a lot. Assuming battlemaster and strength/heavy weapon build (which is far from optimal in 2024).

I've been crunching numbers this evening and it seems pretty dang optimal for melee damage in 2024.

Level 6: I think you are behind at level 6 because when you consider batttlemaster maneuvers; GWM+martial arts beats PAM+GWM.

MA, GWM, Graze (7+4+3)+(7+4+3)+(3.5+4) = 35.5*.6 + .4*4*2 = 24.5
I'd estimate the GWM bonus attack procs about 35% of the time for +2.275 DPR = 26.8
GWM, PAM, Graze (5.5+4+3)+(5.5+4+3)+(2.5+4+3) = 34.5*.6 + .4*4*3 = 25.5
I'd estimate the GWM bonus attack procs about 35% of the time for +1 DPR = 26.5

The Battlemaster manuevers will slightly favor the non-PAM build (+1.5 damage pre accuracy adjustment per maneuver divided by the number of rounds in the period, probably yields about a +.5 DPR increase). However, the reaction attack is the big variable and since the DPR is going to be so close it won't take a very high proc rate to push this over. Something like 2 reaction attacks per short rest from PAM is likely enough to put the PAM version in the lead ever so slightly.

The same point you made at level 3 comes back and bites you here at level 6 - your reaction attacks are not as big a deal because I can make them anyway if I am missed and I do more damage on the bonus action attacks.

Nearly all that was factored in up above. It's easy to make platitudes, but when actually calculating much of that stuff is extremely minor gains, that are easily offset.

Level 7: You are well behind at level 7 as the multiclass has both feats now and is doing more damage.

What feat are you choosing? I'm presuming +2 Str to max out your str at 20?

Level 8: At level 8 you are still behind because you are doing less damage.

Should be back to virtually the same situation as at level 6 as the PAM gets a feat like sentinel, which in addition to putting str at 20 also has an amazing tactical effect and combo with PAM, as well as providing a few more reaction attacks that the MA version does not get.

Level 9 you have indomitable vs not having indomitable and doing more damage. I think this is situationally better, but could go either way.

What feat are you taking here to increase your damage, i'm not really seeing any offensive ones that really benefit your character at this point? Match sentinel feat maybe so you can at least assume more equal reaction attacks? I really don't know what else you might choose?

So 6-7 out of 10 levels you are behind IMO. Keep in mind also this is a build specifically optimized to NOT multiclass. If we optimize and go TWF-Vex-Nick it outruns it by a lot on a single class build and gets blown out of the water on a multiclass build.

If you go TWF-Vex-Nick there is absolutely no point in the monk level as the only real damage feat you can take is dual wielder.

And from the numbers above, it's no where near 6-7 out of 10 levels behind.

 

[FrogReaver]

IMO, if i was going to multiclass I would go for a single level of ranger or warlock sometime in tier 2 so I can get hex or hunter's mark. I'd probably do something like GWM, HAM, Sentinel for my feats and stay with a Greatsword. Makes for an amazing NOVA. Especially with the lucky background feat and battlemaster manuevers like precision and trip attack.

 

[FrogReaver]

I find it interesting that when I sit down and actually run the numbers it's almost like the designers did their math right this time. Everything I'm looking at to try and get damage evaluates out amazingly close for almost every character build at least pre-level 10. That might change after.

 

[Daztur]

I find it interesting that when I sit down and actually run the numbers it's almost like the designers did their math right this time. Everything I'm looking at to try and get damage evaluates out amazingly close for almost every character build at least pre-level 10. That might change after.

The only issue with that is that you get classes like rogue with perfectly fine baseline damage, but worse defenses which is more noticeable with monk defenses being buffed.

Mod Edit: language

 

[W'rkncacnter]

shittier

how the hell did the filter let THAT through?

 

[Corinnguard]

In 2014 martials were way behind casters, but martials were not way behind mutliclassed builds that were primarily martials. Now they are closer, but still behind casters, but also further behind martial multiclass builds at what I would say are most of the levels played.

Is this problem with the martials being behind the casters present only in 2014 D&D? One or more of the 5e-adjacent RPGs such as Level Up might have fixed it by now.

 

[Paul Farquhar]

Is this problem with the martials being behind the casters present only in 2014 D&D

It’s not a 5e issue. It’s been the case in every edition of D&D ever, plus all the D&D adjacent systems I am familiar with (such as Pathfinder). It’s likely that if it were “fixed” the game would not feel like D&D.

 

[Minigiant]

It’s not a 5e issue. It’s been the case in every edition of D&D ever, plus all the D&D adjacent systems I am familiar with (such as Pathfinder). It’s likely that if it were “fixed” the game would not feel like D&D.

It can be fixed and feel like D&D.

The problem is really level 11+.

The non-4e designers are afraid to commit to high level warriors and experts being as fantastic as casters while not being overtly magical.

TV, Movies, and Books can do it.

The designers are afraid to scare the newbies. But few play high level so why hamstring them.

Let martials have 100' speed, tombstone piledriver an adult dragon, and cut through walls of stone/iron/force. Just make it level 15+.

 

[fluffybunbunkittens]

There's some temptation there, for sure, but the monk's new capstone is so good that if there is a chance of the character getting to level 20, it's pretty hard to give up having a minimum of 24/24 in your primary stats, and the 24 AC (naked) to go with it.

Even if you're in the rare campaign going all the way, you'll spend a lot more time at levels lv2-19, than at lv20.

 

[fluffybunbunkittens]

It’s not a 5e issue. It’s been the case in every edition of D&D ever, plus all the D&D adjacent systems I am familiar with (such as Pathfinder).

DnD4e and PF2e do not have this caster superiority problem.