D&D (2024) Command is the Perfect Encapsulation of Everything I Don't Like About 5.5e

[Crimson Longinus]

OK, let's talk vague.

In the 4e PHB 2 the Warden class has an ability that says: "You lash out with nature’s wrath at a foe that has attacked your ally and diminish its defenses." WTF is going on here? What does this lashing out consist of in concrete terms? What is the warden actually DOING? How is he diminishing the target's defenses? Is he eating away with them with acid? Tying the target down so it can't move well? How does this relate to marking? What even IS the warden's mark? The warden's marking power is Nature's Wrath which just says "Once during each of your turns, you can mark each adjacent enemy as a free action. This mark lasts until the end of your next turn" which doesn't explain anything. How is the warden marking people? What does the warden mark do in fictional terms? What does it look like? The whole thing is nothing but one big fat pile of vague to me.

Now you're saying "Daztur, you're missing the whole point, the mechanics are crystal clear." And that's right, the mechanics are crystal clear, but that doesn't mean much to me if what fiction the mechanics are trying to model is clear as mud or "dunno, just make something up." I want to have some clear flavor to make rulings based on if there's a weird edge situations where things aren't working out the way they normally do and all I get is "there's some nature power that does stuff because reasons" which clears up precisely nothing for me.

For me, meanwhile, 5e Command is crystal clear. The caster says a word and if the target understands it and can't resist the magic's power he has to obey that word (with certain restrictions that are clearly spelled out). There's just no vagueness here for me. The spell's flavor is absolutely clear. It gives me all I need to make rulings. Target can't hear? Spell doesn't work. Target doesn't understand WTF the caster is saying? Spell doesn't work. etc. etc.

Now I haven't even mentioned the mechanics of the spell. That's OK. The mechanics are always an imperfect model of the fiction and the fiction always trumps the mechanics. It's much more important for the fiction to be clear than for the mechanics to be so. The mechanics give me guidelines to follow to model the fiction if things are working normally and the flavor description gives me the ironclad rules of how the spell works that the mechanics have to bend to if there's any conflict between the fiction and the mechanics.

Fiction first, mechanics second. As long as the fiction is clear I'm good. The mechanics are there to serve the fiction, not the other way around.

Yeah, you describe perfectly the thing a lot of people found off-putting in 4e. Whilst I don't believe 5.5 will take us back quite to the levels it was in 4e, there definitely are some steps that seem to be going into "mechanics first, fiction as an afterthought" direction. The new stealth rules for example seem to be affected by this.

To me the main purpose of mechanics is to represent the fiction. I have no use for rules that "work" but which are not connected to the fiction.

 

[Jefe Bergenstein]

This is my problem. Most players who think they are being creative with Command aren't looking for the target to just fall prone or waste their turn doing nothing. The suggested (now legal) commands do that. They want the target to do something beyond the bounds of the spell, either as an attempt to deal significantly more damage than a level 1 spell can do (such as falling damage, breathing poison or drowning) or they are looking to ridicule a foe with toilet humor. The second group is not my cup of granny's peach tea, but if you want to waste a level one spell on a prank, that's not my problem. The first group, who think that Command will end encounters or deal more damage than fireball are the ones that get me. Because they always seem so angry when their carefully selected verb doesn't do more than the half-dozen options in the book and most of that clever play doesn't mean more than a dozen different ways to say "run" or "stop".

DM's HATE it! 10 Commands that will allow you to dominate any encounter. You won't believe number 7!

(Number 7 is "Autodefenestrate")

 

[Snarf Zagyg]

It's exactly that sort of crap that I detest. Cheesemonkey weaseling out of effects because I didn't write a freaking ten page contract in order to give the exact wording of the Suggestion.

I now provide to you the guidance of the most holy of scriptures, the 1e PHB and DMG!


From the hallowed Handbook of the Players, blessed be its presence as a libram for all adventurers!

Wish spell (p. 94)
Regardless of what is wished for, the exact terminology of the wish spell is likely to be carried through. (This discretionary power of the referee is necessary in order to maintain game balance. As wishing another character dead would be grossly unfair, for example, your DM might well advance the spell caster to a future period where the object is no longer alive, i.e. putting the wishing character out of the campaign.)

From the Guide to the Dungeon Masters! Do not forget the magic incantation or the most unholy of vengeance shall be loosed upon you!*

Ring of Multiple Wishes (p. 130)
As with any wish, you must be very judicious in how you handle the request. If players are greedy and grasping, be sure to ”crock” them. Interpret their wording exactly, twist the wording, or simply rule the request is beyond the power of the magic. In any case, the wish is used up, whether or not (or how) the wish was granted.


*

Ask not what the wish can do for you, ask how the wish can screw you.
-DM John F. Kennedy, asking for a jelly donut.

 

[DinoInDisguise]

I reprehrased and presented my opinion multiple times and yet people keep going with the same bad faith strawman argumentss. There is a point where trying to explain yourself against someone's adamant ignorance and ill will becomes humilating.

Sometimes I feel like forums are good venues for beating dead horses. If I state my opinion on something, and you don't find it persuasive, how likely is it that restating that opinion helps? But you see exactly that happen all the time. Many threads can feel like a youtube video on repeat. This isn't meant as commentary on people's enjoyment or use of forums, just an observation.

I'd encourage you to just step away any time you feel a conversation has progressed beyond usefulness. Convincing people with deeply held beliefs on topics that they are passionate about can be a fools errand.

 

[KYRON45]

It used to be, especially in 3.x. After a certain point around level 15, there was the optimized wizard and everyone else in the party.

I don't see an issue in 5E, others do.

Great...i obviously have to turn in my nerd card.

 

[Professor Murder]

Sometimes I feel like forums are good venues for beating dead horses. If I state my opinion on something, and you don't find it persuasive, how likely is it that restating that opinion helps. But you see exactly that happen all the time. Many threads can feel like a youtube video on repeat. This isn't meant as commentary on people's enjoyment or use of forums, just an observation.

I'd encourage you to just step away any time you feel a conversation has progressed beyond usefulness. Convincing people with deeply held beliefs on topics that they are passionate about can be a fools errand.

Amen. Look, if you have made your point to your satisfaction as clearly as you think you8 can, it is often better for your own mental health to just call it a day.

 

[Not a Decepticon]

Sometimes I feel like forums are good venues for beating dead horses. If I state my opinion on something, and you don't find it persuasive, how likely is it that restating that opinion helps? But you see exactly that happen all the time. Many threads can feel like a youtube video on repeat. This isn't meant as commentary on people's enjoyment or use of forums, just an observation.

I'd encourage you to just step away any time you feel a conversation has progressed beyond usefulness. Convincing people with deeply held beliefs on topics that they are passionate about can be a fools errand.

I will gladly step away, since this conversation in this thread is pointless.

 

[Oofta]

Great...i obviously have to turn in my nerd card.

Nah, you're still just an apprentice nerd! Fear not before you know it you'll be telling those young whippersnappers about how you played back in the day. "We didn't need no fancy virtual reality sims! Nosiree! We used miniatures at our kitchen table on a grid, and we liked it!"

 

[Professor Murder]

Nah, you're still just an apprentice nerd! Fear not before you know it you'll be telling those young whippersnappers about how you played back in the day. "We didn't need no fancy virtual reality sims! Nosiree! We used miniatures at our kitchen table on a grid, and we liked it!"

"Minis?!? Why, we would have killed for minis! We had buttons! Buttons and pennies and bottle caps and dag gumit we were thankful!"

 

[KYRON45]

Nah, you're still just an apprentice nerd! Fear not before you know it you'll be telling those young whippersnappers about how you played back in the day. "We didn't need no fancy virtual reality sims! Nosiree! We used miniatures at our kitchen table on a grid, and we liked it!"

We played for almost 10 years before we even know there were miniatures and grids!!!
The "map" was tissue paper swiss cheese at the end of a session with all of the erasing!!!