D&D (2024) Heroes of the Borderlands

[Micah Sweet]

They were never “monsters”, they were always humans in rubber masks (and black hats). The 1970s was four hundred years too late for players to see them as just monsters.

Then why did so many people do just that? Why was this not rejected out of hand? Why do people still enjoy playing the original today?

 

[Paul Farquhar]

Cthulu was less than 50 years old at that point I believe...and LotR was less than 30..

And Star Trek and Doctor Who were currently on TV, and both shows managed to distinguish between actual monsters and people who were just different in appearance and culture.

 

[Micah Sweet]

I'm not sure if you're aware, but fire ants aren't sentient beings with the capacity to learn and change.

Gygax's gross attitudes should remain buried in the past. A starter adventure should be a fun introduction to the mechanics, not crap that grinds the game to a halt with ethical debates, like deciding what to do with orc babies.

You don't think people found and perhaps still find KotB a fun introduction to the mechanics of whatever game for which it is written?

 

[Malmuria]

The idea of the "other" as monstrous, inherently without order, incapable of reason, as "savage," etc was throughly embedded in the ideologies of western imperialism including American settler colonialism.

Cthulu was less than 50 years old at that point

...And Lovecraftian horror was itself extremely problematic along these lines...

Anyway, the fact that we are even having this discussion again shows the kind of baggage that KotB comes with. Here we are talking once again about orc babies and the nature of evil/chaos. Is this really the conversation wotc wants people to be having? I realize there is a nostalgia/IP angle, but why not choose another adventure that doesn't prompt these kinds of discussions. And how many 2024 starter set consumers are really buying it because of nostalgia for a set released in 1981?

 

[Micah Sweet]

The idea of the "other" as monstrous, inherently without order, incapable of reason, as "savage," etc was throughly embedded in the ideologies of western imperialism including American settler colonialism.


...And Lovecraftian horror was itself extremely problematic along these lines...

Anyway, the fact that we are even having this discussion again shows the kind of baggage that KotB comes with. Here we are talking once again about orc babies and the nature of evil/chaos. Is this really the conversation wotc wants people to be having? I realize there is a nostalgia/IP angle, but why not choose another adventure that doesn't prompt these kinds of discussions. And how many 2024 starter set consumers are really buying it because of nostalgia for a set released in 1981?

Or write a new adventure? The last two starter sets were pretty original.

 

[MonsterEnvy]

Or write a new adventure? The last two starter sets were pretty original.

So there is nothing wrong with doing a remaster for the third.

 

[Distracted DM]

I'm going to assume you watched Starship Troopers and missed the point.

GG .

To be fair, most people missed the point even at release. Not to mention that the director was lampooning the book that it was sourced from.

 

[Micah Sweet]

So there is nothing wrong with doing a remaster for the third.

What? Why do a "re-master" at all?

 

[Jolly Ruby]

I've seen this. This is why I put down my Alien reference (pretty far back in the thread) where some prefer (and this is more of the original style of play) to simply have the horrific creature or monster (like in the movie alien) that is going to kill and hunt...no real reason known at times...but it WILL kill you.

Slightly related: one reference I like that depicts this turning point from the "nightmare monster" to the shades of grey approach is Metroid 2: you spend the whole game extinguinshing an parasitic alien race clearly inspired in the Alien movie. Then in the last moments you find the last egg of the whole metroid species and decide to let it live. The last survivor of the monstrous species then help you to survive and scape the planet.

 

[Oofta]

And Star Trek and Doctor Who were currently on TV, and both shows managed to distinguish between actual monsters and people who were just different in appearance and culture.

I haven't watched Doctor Who in ages, but Star Trek? Star Trek aliens are all humans in rubber masks and depicted as such. Occasionally funny ears. Even Vulcans deep down are just part of a planet of hats planet-wide followers of a strict religion based on logic. In order to be truly alien in Star Trek you have to look at something like the Borg, but they're alien because they're mostly cybernetic. It might be different with the Gorn in Strange New Worlds. But even with the Gorn if you go back to the original series, Kirk argued that they were just badly misunderstood humans in a costume. A lot of Star Trek has the planet of hats syndrome, but all aliens are basically human to the point that cross-species romances are commonplace.

Whether it should be that way is another issue, it's hard for us to imagine what a truly alien race would be like and what they would think like. Even if we have no issue recognizing that the significant difference in behavior between a wolf and a dog comes almost completely down to nature and not nurture. A wolf will never be a dog and never be truly "tame".

I think the differences should be left up to individual campaigns. If you want vampires that sparkle in the sunlight, go for it. For me? The only reason they sparkle is because they're about to combust.