D&D (2024) Heroes of the Borderlands

[Paul Farquhar]

Creativity? A desire to not endlessly ride on the coattails of the past?

Humans like things that are old and familiar. The story of B2 was old when the module was written. That’s what made it memorable (also see: Star Wars).

New things are scary and dangerous, no one wants those (see: reaction to every new edition of D&D ever).

 

[Scribe]

View attachment 378137

I had seen some Ebay listings.

 

[Scribe]

Or Amazon...

 

[Micah Sweet]

So far removed from how who plays today? I literally just ran the original using OSE rules at a convention earlier this year. Full table, 3 brand new players... they were hooked.

I assume they meant so far removed from the current design paradigm and sensibilities of WotC. I love the original personally, and know many who feel the same.

 

[Micah Sweet]

Humans like things that are old and familiar. The story of B2 was old when the module was written. That’s what made it memorable (also see: Star Wars).

New things are scary and dangerous, no one wants those (see: reaction to every new edition of D&D ever).

"It'll make more money with old names" is never going to be a good enough reason for me.

 

[Distracted DM]

Pressing those nostalgia buttons works wonders- I hate how effective it is, because even I want to see how they redo it. Nostalgia and anemoia, romanticizing the past.

 

[GreyLord]

But D&D has not had a very consistent view of them even in the earliest days. Orcs were nightmare creatures, but also creatures of flesh and blood who birth and raise children. They aren't undead or unnatural beings, nor are they beasts with no capacity to think or reason. They were evil because the Monster Manual said they were evil, and the excuses for why (evil society, dominated by evil gods) came later.

I don't want to litigate the orcs debate again, because I still accept the notion that most orcs you would meet are evil is a valid play style. My concern though is that then being evil justified a lot of actions we would consider heinous war crimes. Even if they are creatures bent towards evil, they are living natural creatures and that alone should warrant certain rules of engagement. The idea that you can barge into their homes, kill their families and take their stuff because they are evil just seems so... Repellent when you consider ** gestures vaguely at several world conflicts **.

So I think KotB, even keeping the idea that the humanoids of the Caves are majority evil-intended and malicious to the keep, should be redone to remove the overt colonial elements from the story. Several people have suggested good alternatives to why the Caves would have various humanoids and not their families. (A staging ground for an invading army, gathered by the Temple of Chaos, is perfect in its simplicity).

You may have never dealt with fire ants.

(And Fireants aren't even EVIL! At least not like how Orcs of old were. Fireants may actually eat and kill babies [has happened, rare, but happens], but that's not due to them simply being evil. Half Orcs were NOT products of loving homes originally...though getting into how Half Orcs were formed probably would be somewhat troublesome in commenting here).

Even in the real world, there are some things that, even if they have children and are biological, you don't really want to sympathize with.

I don't think anyone has ever been condemned legally for killing fire ants. Countless stories of how people hate them.

Compared to the Orcs of old...Fire ants would actually be the GOOD GUYS...if that says anything about HOW orcs would be viewed originally.

 

[mamba]

So far removed from how who plays today? I literally just ran the original using OSE rules at a convention earlier this year. Full table, 3 brand new players... they were hooked.

by and large yes, not everyone of course. There is stylistic difference between KotB and today’s 5e adventures, and the move away was already happening during 1e/2e

 

[GreyLord]

by and large yes, not everyone of course. There is stylistic difference between KotB and today’s 5e adventures, and the move away was already happening during 1e/2e

I've seen this. This is why I put down my Alien reference (pretty far back in the thread) where some prefer (and this is more of the original style of play) to simply have the horrific creature or monster (like in the movie alien) that is going to kill and hunt...no real reason known at times...but it WILL kill you.

Modern preferences for many is to see monsters as sympathetic beings that may not simply be monsters or horrors of the night, but humans of a different form. This changes the dynamic of the game. No longer do you have the horror of something that is indescribable and unrelatable, but you can have the moral dilemmas so many touch upon in this thread.

(interestingly enough, Gygax warned directly against playing demi-humans in this way, specifying that their very essence was different. They were not simply humans that look different, but their very core was different and foreign to humans...if I recall correctly. By playing demi-humans simply as humans that look different they decreased the variables of the game and made simply humans and more humans).

This idea of his, was hard to maintain from the beginning. The reason he stated such was because you already had those who were playing other races as simply humans with different faces. I guess you could call it our human nature to portray our characters as...human...even if they are an elf, or a dwarf, or a hobbit (err...I mean...halfling).

As time progressed, the way of playing races and humans with different faces has gained momentum and popularity. You need not look any further than TSR novels to see elves and dwarves portrayed basically as humans would be (because, in the end, we relate MORE to how humans are than some foreign alien creature that thinks, acts, and behaves far differently than we would).

It's all a preference on the way you choose to play. Unfortunately, sometimes both sides cannot see why the other side prefers to play the way they do. Unfortunately, at times there is no attempt to understand or allow the other type of playstyle, though both styles are still in play today.

 

[Paul Farquhar]

I've seen this. This is why I put down my Alien reference (pretty far back in the thread) where some prefer (and this is more of the original style of play) to simply have the horrific creature or monster (like in the movie alien) that is going to kill and hunt...no real reason known at times...but it WILL kill you.

Modern preferences for many is to see monsters as sympathetic beings that may not simply be monsters or horrors of the night, but humans of a different form. This changes the dynamic of the game. No longer do you have the horror of something that is indescribable and unrelatable, but you can have the moral dilemmas so many touch upon in this thread.

(interestingly enough, Gygax warned directly against playing demi-humans in this way, specifying that their very essence was different. They were not simply humans that look different, but their very core was different and foreign to humans...if I recall correctly. By playing demi-humans simply as humans that look different they decreased the variables of the game and made simply humans and more humans).

This idea of his, was hard to maintain from the beginning. The reason he stated such was because you already had those who were playing other races as simply humans with different faces. I guess you could call it our human nature to portray our characters as...human...even if they are an elf, or a dwarf, or a hobbit (err...I mean...halfling).

As time progressed, the way of playing races and humans with different faces has gained momentum and popularity. You need not look any further than TSR novels to see elves and dwarves portrayed basically as humans would be (because, in the end, we relate MORE to how humans are than some foreign alien creature that thinks, acts, and behaves far differently than we would).

It's all a preference on the way you choose to play. Unfortunately, sometimes both sides cannot see why the other side prefers to play the way they do. Unfortunately, at times there is no attempt to understand or allow the other type of playstyle, though both styles are still in play today.

KotB was never a horror adventure. It was always a Western. And like really old Westerns it had white hats and black hats. But westerns had already moved on from that by the 1970s.