D&D (2024) Heroes of the Borderlands

[Remathilis]

Where the hell is this "orcs are nightmare creatures" idea come from? I've played from BECMI and 1e, and this is a perception that is utterly alien to me and doesn't match anything that I've read in the rulebooks.

It came from a desire to try to remove any ounce of humanity from them to justify slaughtering their children.

 

[Scribe]

It came from a desire to try to remove any ounce of humanity from them to justify slaughtering their children.

Or from watching Lord of the Rings, one or the other.

 

[Warpiglet-7]

I think this is largely going to be the divide, the art direction of 5.5 and the inherent world building it portrays. I mean squint at that picture. It’s just humans in need of a tan.

Major turn off…I am not very inspired yet. But I am not going to dog it until
I see more of it. Even then I really don’t want to do that.

I may just stick with 5e.

But the flavor is not consistent with me or my group’s desire for fantasy. Its good! And I like the covers but eh…

 

[Warpiglet-7]

It came from a desire to try to remove any ounce of humanity from them to justify slaughtering their children.

Yeah—-I recently read Tolkien did want unrepentant bad guys who were uh, disposable targets…

 

[Scribe]

Major turn off…I am not very inspired yet. But I am not going to dog it until
I see more of it.

I've seen enough of the art, and the game itself is either the same one it was before, or somehow even more convoluted looking at a few of the threads, while they keep trying to just cash in on the history of the game instead of trying to forge something new.

 

[Oofta]

The Horta, Medusans, Tholians, Excalbians, and many others would quibble with this characterization. Star Trek presented lots of examples of treating other sentient creatures, even decidedly non-humanoid ones, with compassion and understanding.

It's also worth pointing out that both Star Trek and Doctor Who almost always presented violence as a last resort. It wasn't as if no other ways to conceptualize fantastic adventures existed when KotB was published.

Now, you could argue that D&D, at least early D&D and particularly Gygaxian D&D, was the product of alternative traditions, leaning more strongly on the blood-soaked adventures of swords-and-sorcery rather than intellectual sci-fi. But even Conan didn't go around slaughtering women and children.

And as for Orcs presented as the always-evil creatures they seem to be in Tolkien's published works, it's unclear whether Orc women or children even exist. They're never shown AFAIK, and no groups of helpless Orcs waiting to be killed by stalwart adventurers are ever encountered.

In fact, upon reflection, the whole "nits make lice" go-ahead to murder helpless non-humanoids in fantasy adventures seems to be novel to D&D. Are there literary precedents for the situations presented in KotB, implicitly encouraging the slaughter of entire communities of sentient creatures?

Their specific shape doesn't really matter, most aliens in the end they had human drives and emotions with many eventually joining Starfleet. On the other hand the original series got quite odd at the end and I never said every single alien species was effectively a human, just the vast majority. At least the ones that were around for more than one episode. Even the Horta were just caring parents trying to protect their young. Oh, and sad though it may be, I don't have encyclopedic knowledge of every original series race.

My point was that there are dozens of species from entirely different planets that are all basically human, the handful that aren't are typically one and done and from TOS.

 

[Remathilis]

Or from watching Lord of the Rings, one or the other.

D&D orcs aren't LotR orcs, and the rule books from 0e on have never given them that inhuman origin. They were just a race of stupid, evil henchmen and mooks, alongside other humanoids like kobolds and goblinoids. And while the ratio of good orcs to bad was always skewed toward evil, it never was a discussion that orcs were anything more than evil aligned humanoids.

 

[mamba]

In fact, upon reflection, the whole "nits make lice" go-ahead to murder helpless non-humanoids in fantasy adventures seems to be novel to D&D. Are there literary precedents for the situations presented in KotB, implicitly encouraging the slaughter of entire communities of sentient creatures?

I assume they come more from Gygax’ war gaming background / interest in history than from some literary tradition

https://www.sierraclub.org/planet/2018/06/deprived-humanity-sand-creek-massacre-today

"when some of his soldiers protested the order to massacre women and children, Colonel Chivington replied: “Damn any man who sympathizes with Indians!...Kill and scalp all, big and little; nits make lice.”"

 

[Scribe]

D&D orcs aren't LotR orcs, and the rule books from 0e on have never given them that inhuman origin. They were just a race of stupid, evil henchmen and mooks, alongside other humanoids like kobolds and goblinoids. And while the ratio of good orcs to bad was always skewed toward evil, it never was a discussion that orcs were anything more than evil aligned humanoids.

The game doesn't exist in a bubble. Ask some gamers what an Orc is.

Warcraft Orcs? Which ones?
Warhammer Green and Brutal Orcs?
LotR Orcs? Nightmare fuel for sure.
D&D Orcs? What edition?

The 5.5 art for everyone leans very hard into Humans in Hats. Is that the assumption now?

 

[Micah Sweet]

I think this is largely going to be the divide, the art direction of 5.5 and the inherent world building it portrays. I mean squint at that picture. Its just humans in need of a tan.

Yeah. I really don't see what separates humans from orcs under this paradigm, other than some rather mild aesthetics.