D&D 5E (2024) Heroes of the Borderlands

[Remathilis]

Yeah. I really don't see what separates humans from orcs under this paradigm, other than some rather mild aesthetics.

.

 

[Micah Sweet]

.

Cute. They have narrowed the gap considerably.

 

[GreyLord]

I'm going to assume you watched Starship Troopers and missed the point.

GG .

I'd imagine you are wrong about that.

HOWEVER, those who fail to see the other point of view and insist that they are the ONLY correct view, probably misunderstand ONE portion of WHY the protagonist of the movie are actually the bad guys.

That said, the main theme, that of the dangers of facism, is one that I"m not sure why you are bringing it into the debate here, unless your default fall back is to try to Godwin the thread?

An attempt to bring politics into the thread.

The only relation this would have to our discussion is the dogmatic insistence of one group that theirs is the ONLY viewpoint and it has to be correct. All others are wrong and must be destroyed. It is a failure to try to understand, and instead to ONLY have the "ONE TRUE WAY". Everyone must join this way or they are also wrong.

Would you like to learn more?

I UNDERSTAND that people have different playstyles and WHY some prefer to play with Orcs as different types of Humans.

However, I ALSO find that both sides of the discussion have those that REFUSE to understand why others understand how others game or why....and in the process sometimes refuse to acknowledge that there are other playstyles and experiences (for example, the Alien and Aliens experience vs. that of Loki or Fast and Furious).

IT is IRONIC then, that some (emphasis on SOME, there are many who are NOT like this) of those who CLAIM to be accepting are those that refuse to acknowledge there are or were other ways that people see monsters (even with the evidence of movies, fairytales, fantasy fiction, and more staring us in the face where monsters are NOT human and have very different motivations, including just acting for evil or acting for the powers of chaos) and how they are portrayed then their thoughts that there is only one way to play where we have monsters being more humanlike and relatable to humans.

Whilst most of those who have seen and played it the other way (monsters are creatures of horror, evil, darkness, and chaos) I've described do not (at least from what I've seen thus far) can understand both viewpoints.

I am trying to explain how many saw the game previously (and ironically, despite me actually being one of those playing at the times of the 70s and 80s, have people trying to inform me that no, there is no possible way I actually saw this in real life or something) and that this is not actually a wrong or bad way to play.

To UNDERSTAND and ACCEPT others is to accept that there are many ways to play and many ways to understand and enjoy the game.

This includes those who see monsters as just that, MONSTERS that represent the powers of Chaos and destruction, as well as those who feel that the game should add a different type of complexity in having many of those monsters be more humanlike.

There are also many degrees in between. Even D&D has not embraced the idea that ALL Monsters are human in thinking yet (only certain, specific races for some reason), as they still have Demons, Devils, and other things of irredeemable evil.

To understand and allow others their fun I feel is a fundamental part of having D&D grow and be accepted itself.

We gain nothing by trying to force ONE TRUE dogmatic way of playing on others. It is better to try to accept and understand, than try to force others to play the way we want (unless it is on a smaller scale, such as a group, and done only in order to maintain peaceful relations and a comfortable game amongst the players).

 

[Demetrios1453]

I haven't watched Doctor Who in ages,

Given the time frame the previous poster was talking about (around 60 years ago), the 1965 Doctor Who serial Galaxy Four quite definitely takes the "monsters aren't evil" trope and runs with it. The Doctor and his companions land on a planet about to blow itself up, where two spacecraft have crash landed (after a fight above the planet). One is crewed by beautiful women, the other by horrible boar-like creatures that breathe poison gas (that, in order afford them on the show's shoestring budget, are never seen in full and obscured by the gas). In the end, though, beauty is only skin deep, and the women turn out to be members of a harsh, militaristic society (who picked the fight that caused the ships to crash) and the boar creatures are revealed to be gentle and peaceful creatures. The Doctor obviously decides to help the latter escape once all is revealed, leaving the former to their fiery fate.

(Sadly, only one full episode and substantial clip of another are all that exist of the four-episode serial).

 

[Azzy]

The game doesn't exist in a bubble. Ask some gamers what an Orc is.

Warcraft Orcs? Which ones?

How about the D&D orcs that are never presented as nightmare monsters?

 

[Scribe]

How about the D&D orcs that are never presented as nightmare monsters?

I hate to get pedantic, but fine, whats a nightmare monster?

I can certainly imagine if an ugly, tusked, hulking being famed for a short temper, warlike, beholden to a God that wanted to dominate the world, amassed an army or broke down my door I would imagine it was a nightmare monster.

Was the lore in 4e kinder to the Orcs? I dont count the 'modern' 5e lore as any way reflective of the history of the game.

There's a D&D Orc.

 

[Paul Farquhar]

I haven't watched Doctor Who in ages, but Star Trek? Star Trek aliens are all humans in rubber masks and depicted as such. Occasionally funny ears. Even Vulcans deep down are just part of a planet of hats planet-wide followers of a strict religion based on logic. In order to be truly alien in Star Trek you have to look at something like the Borg, but they're alien because they're mostly cybernetic. It might be different with the Gorn in Strange New Worlds. But even with the Gorn if you go back to the original series, Kirk argued that they were just badly misunderstood humans in a costume. A lot of Star Trek has the planet of hats syndrome, but all aliens are basically human to the point that cross-species romances are commonplace.

Whether it should be that way is another issue, it's hard for us to imagine what a truly alien race would be like and what they would think like. Even if we have no issue recognizing that the significant difference in behavior between a wolf and a dog comes almost completely down to nature and not nurture. A wolf will never be a dog and never be truly "tame".

I think the differences should be left up to individual campaigns. If you want vampires that sparkle in the sunlight, go for it. For me? The only reason they sparkle is because they're about to combust.

Star Trek had its actual monsters.

And there are also the parasitic aliens of Operation: Annihilate.

Balance of Terror might be a better comparison to KotB though. Are the Romulans evil monsters? Clearly not. Does the hero fight and kill them anyway, without being less than heroic? Sure.

 

[Paul Farquhar]

What? Why do a "re-master" at all?

Because it’s an iconic story that reminds D&D of its western roots.

And it’s such a simple concept that it’s difficult NOT to repeat.

 

[Paul Farquhar]

horrible boar-like creatures that breathe poison gas

I wouldn’t really describe them as “boar-like”. My impression is the good aliens are really quite Lovecraftian in appearance.

 

[Azzy]

I hate to get pedantic, but fine, whats a nightmare monster?

That would have to be anwered by the GreyLord (whom I believed coined the term).

I can certainly imagine if an ugly, tusked, hulking being famed for a short temper, warlike, beholden to a God that wanted to dominate the world, amassed an army or broke down my door I would imagine it was a nightmare monster.

Aside from the tusked bit, that could be said about various bellicose humans as well.

Was the lore in 4e kinder to the Orcs? I dont count the 'modern' 5e lore as any way reflective of the history of the game.

Dunno. Never played 4e

There's a D&D Orc.

That looks like the 3e reimagining of orcs where they went from LE in AD&D to CE in 3e.

This is the first D&D orc image that I ever saw (1e MM):

Here's from the 2e Monstrous Manual.