D&D (2024) Heroes of the Borderlands

[Micah Sweet]

It is completely possible his opinions changed as he aged and matured.

They went back and forth, actually. Don't assume that a move towards your personal feelings on a subject is a sign of maturity.

 

[Oofta]

It is completely possible his opinions changed as he aged and matured.

He fought in WWI, I'm sure his thoughts on enemy combatants was quite complicated. The Hobbit was a kid's story that didn't really worry too much about whether goblins or golem were evil. When it came to LotR, it's tough. You have Sauron who was evil, but all of his troops? That's more difficult. Are they viewed as "real" or are they just a stand-in representation of the evils of war?

In any case, he went back and forth on a lot of things, even on what orcs and other troops were. Sometimes there is no good answer.

 

[Parmandur]

He fought in WWI, I'm sure his thoughts on enemy combatants was quite complicated. The Hobbit was a kid's story that didn't really worry too much about whether goblins or golem were evil. When it came to LotR, it's tough. You have Sauron who was evil, but all of his troops? That's more difficult. Are they viewed as "real" or are they just a stand-in representation of the evils of war?

In any case, he went back and forth on a lot of things, even on what orcs and other troops were. Sometimes there is no good answer.

Even regarding Sauron or Morgoth themselves, Tolkien at some points expressed the idea of apokatastasis, or universal reconciliation, being a real possiblity.

 

[Oofta]

Even regarding Sauron or Morgoth themselves, Tolkien at some points expressed the idea of apokatastasis, or universal reconciliation, being a real possiblity.

He was a devout Catholic, that makes sense.

 

[Paul Farquhar]

Even regarding Sauron or Morgoth themselves, Tolkien at some points expressed the idea of apokatastasis, or universal reconciliation, being a real possiblity.

Strangely, that supports the version of Sauron in The Rings of Power.

 

[Parmandur]

Strangely, that supports the version of Sauron in The Rings of Power.

No coincidence, I think: the writers went deep on their Tolkien lore, even if they have to make up their own stuff.

 

[Whizbang Dustyboots]

Strangely, that supports the version of Sauron in The Rings of Power.

Just came here to say that.

 

[ilgatto]

KotB is the quintessential "Slaughter all the evil humanoids, and the women and the children too" module. (...)

Is it, though?

The Keep on the Borderlands: "This module has been designed to allow six to nine player characters of first level to play out many adventures, gradually working up to second or third level of experience in the process."

The Keep on the Borderlands: "Above all a player must think. The game is designed to challenge the minds and imaginations of the players.
"Those who tackle problems and use their abilities, wits, and new ideas will succeed more often than fail. The challenge of thinking is a great deal of the fun of the game."

I'd say that it could be argued that PCs murder-hoboing "all the evil humanoids and the women and the children too" says rather more about the players than the module itself.

As to the argument that all humanoids are evil and that that's racial stereotyping or even culturally unsafe I can only say that views on good and evil vary wildly throughout all of history - which, in this case, is perhaps best illustrated by EGG's statements on the subject of paladins being allowed to kill all things evil regardless. Although I have very strong opinions on what is good and evil, I also believe that the differences between them are not always as evident as they are often purported to be - and I've always had a lot of fun with confronting players with morally complex choices and NPCs with complex personalities, whether evil or good in alignment.

To me, all The Keep on the Borderlands presents is a mini-setting, which can be used for all manner of purposes. Indeed, even the silliness of so many "evil humanoids cohabiting in such a small complex" can easily be explained away by an imaginative DM. What could lie behind this unlikely situation? Is there a reason that all-out war hasn't erupted? Wouldn't Chaos be ultimately served once the proverbial does hit the fan? What if this proverbial would be a mass assault on the keep the moment the PCs arrive?

The Keep on the Borderlands: "Become familiar with this module, then make whatever additions or changes you feel are necessary for your campaign."

And to think that I never even liked The Keep on the Borderlands.

P.S.: Don't mean anything with quoting your post, @Remathilis, it's just that it nicely captures how KotB is usually seen.

 

[Plaguescarred]

Interesting to see GREYHAWK getting more love! Funily in 2012 when playtesting the next edition WoTC sent me Caves of Chaos in Alpha Packets to serve as base adventure site.

 

[ECMO3]

"Ok kids. I know we just slaughtered your tribe, but we're going to let you leave the only home and family ever you've known to go starve in the wilderness. Because we're the Good Guys."

You can only do this if it is a milestone game. If it is an XP game you need to kill children too.