Spoilers Rings of Power is back!

[Sepulchrave II]

Didn't have to be positive. Just not overwhelmingly and hyperbolically derogatory.

I'm not sure that derogatory conveys my statements very well. Although it can be directed toward an object or an abstraction (such as a TV show), it's really a word better suited to describing an attack on a person. Maybe disparaging, or disdainful would suit better. And while I've questioned the bona fides of the showrunners, I haven't cast shade on their character.

I've also avoided impugning the character of people who like RoP; I haven't questioned their sincerity, or ascribed motives to their tastes. So when you write:

affronted nerd rage

or

Tolkeinistas[sic]

or

collective apoplexy

or

rend their garments and find reasons to hate

or

dogmatic ideology of fictional purity

or

give lie to their claim 'I really wanted this to be good'

It does seem rather derogatory.

For the record, I really wanted this to be good.

 

[TheSword]

So...to be fair and not insulting I should read everyone's opinions and research? Not really following you here.

I'll agree that the show has problems, and there have been a lot of little things that have been headscratchers, but not enough to ruin anything for me - or drive me to spend my time laying into the mistakes,"weaknesses", "errors" etc...

I mean, if people get something out of spending their time that way, cool for them I guess.

Having gone to school for fine art, I got art criticism training, and the way most stuff online goes about "critiquing" media is...not art criticism. It's mostly opinion wankery. So, I avoid most of it, because 9 times out of 10 it's mostly nonsense, or long-winded pedantery, or worse.

I have the links to the articles, so maybe if I'm laid up for a day I'll read them? I have ADHD, so probably not.

There is always Netflix Jaskier’s approach when he takes some criticism on the Docks of Oxenfurt.

All right. Am I gonna say it? Yeah, I'm gonna say it. You know, if you could write yourself a little song you could sing yourself whatever you please, but you can't, can you? Because you are a dockside scapegrace, a quailing reculent, a beef witted, hell hated, addlepated goon… And maybe, just maybe you are grateful to be entertained!

Though that is Jaskier’s response to the dock guard of course… and not at all to critics of Witcher season 1.

 

[TheSword]

I'm not sure that derogatory conveys my statements very well. Although it can be directed toward an object or an abstraction (such as a TV show), it's really a word better suited to describing an attack on a person. Maybe disparaging, or disdainful would suit better. And while I've questioned the bona fides of the showrunners, I haven't cast shade on their character.

I've also avoided impugning the character of people who like RoP; I haven't questioned their sincerity, or ascribed motives to their tastes. So when you write:


or

or

or

or

or


It does seem rather derogatory.

For the record, I really wanted this to be good.

Not an attack on people at all. Very general criticism of an approach and behavior.

I think there is a group dynamic around Tolkein that doesn’t exist to the same extent in many other places (except maybe other long running franchises like Star Wars) where the historical sense of ownership that comes from being a super fan of a complex and nerdy IP combined with the ostracism that came from that back when these IPs came out makes people protective to a hostile extent. We saw it when Arwen was given speaking lines and a sword, we saw it when Sardoc and Arondir were cast and we see it when good meaning folks are burried under many trivial details to suggest they aren’t talented enough to write an adaption of Tolkien’s great works. It is this group that I refer to as the Tolkeinistas. Yes I do think they experienced collective apoplexy (just means extreme anger) and the other adjectives that go with it.

I’ve been very careful not to attribute this to any person I’m in discussion with in this forum. Yet I do think that this mindset exists (just as it did with Star Wars). I think it’s pretty destructive and toxic and people can make their own minds up.

 

[Micah Sweet]

There is always Netflix Jaskier’s approach when he takes some criticism on the Docks of Oxenfurt.


Though that is Jaskier’s response to the dock guard of course… and not at all to critics of Witcher season 1.

That last sounds like a deflection of all criticism. Is that your intention?

 

[Kaodi]

I just think that whoever chose the ending song for the latest episode should be fired. Is that so much to ask? ; )

Anyway I had this thought about art criticism while reading the last few pages of this thread: when talking about "criticism" versus "opinion" in something like (fine) art criticism is the issue not that the critics are not talking about real things, they do have more fine tuned appreciation, but rather that they are the rules lawyers of art appreciation? To the point where the rules of the game become more important than what is actually being shown and said? And as such there are times where a critic may not see what is plain as day to anyone else?

 

[TheSword]

That last sounds like a deflection of all criticism. Is that your intention?

It’s a great response because it’s Jaskier. He can get away with it.

I think the scene was actually a funny nod to say we heard your specific feedback but just remember we’re adapting a weighty fantasy story, we’re only human and just try to keep some perspective because no-one else yet has tried to do this specific thing we’re doing now and no one has done it better yet.

Peter Jackson and Fran spoke of the extraordinary difficulty adapting the films - which was a extensively detailed - and the challenge it was to keep fans happy extremely difficult. How much harder to produce something that hasn’t been well detailed.

Criticism should be kept in perspective. There ain’t that many good true fantasy TV shows out there. Don’t put folks off making more of them.

 

[Micah Sweet]

It’s a great response because it’s Jaskier. He can get away with it.

I think the scene was actually a funny nod to say we heard your specific feedback but just remember we’re adapting a weighty fantasy story, we’re only human and just try to keep some perspective because no-one else yet has tried to do this specific thing we’re doing now and no one has done it better yet.

Peter Jackson and Fran spoke of the extraordinary difficulty adapting the films - which was a extensively detailed - and the challenge it was to keep fans happy extremely difficult. How much harder to produce something that hasn’t been well detailed.

Criticism should be kept in perspective. There ain’t that many good true fantasy TV shows out there. Don’t put folks off making more of them.

The Witcher was to my mind pretty solid on worldbuilding, actually. And Jackson did a much better job on making things make logical sense on a smaller budget than RoP.

 

[ART!]

I just think that whoever chose the ending song for the latest episode should be fired. Is that so much to ask? ; )

Anyway I had this thought about art criticism while reading the last few pages of this thread: when talking about "criticism" versus "opinion" in something like (fine) art criticism is the issue not that the critics are not talking about real things, they do have more fine tuned appreciation, but rather that they are the rules lawyers of art appreciation? To the point where the rules of the game become more important than what is actually being shown and said? And as such there are times where a critic may not see what is plain as day to anyone else?

Yeah, one can definitely get too far up one's own you-know-what with art criticism. It can be easy to miss the forest for the trees. I've been to art exhibit openings where the juror(s) will talk about why they chose the award-winners, and sometimes it's work that is technically proficient, but also hackneyed as hell. You can almost smell some of the artists present vomiting a little bit in their mouths.

There's a podcast called Other Minds & Hands, by the same hosts who do the Rings & Realms show on Youtube - Corey Olsen (aka "the Tolkien Professor") and Maggie Parke.

I love how they talk about RoP on OM&H, because it's almost never about what either of them liked or didn't like, but rather about the art of adaptation itself, about themes and how they're framed and pursued by the creators - that kind of thing. R&R does this, too, but with a focus on visuals.

 

[MarkB]

Nice to see Celebrimbor finally getting a chance to fight back somewhat, though the whole "they're on a loop" way that he noticed the illusion was very Truman Show.

 

[ART!]

Looking forward to the new ep when I get home tonight! Very curious to see how this season ends...