D&D (2024) Thief Rogue / True Strike

[fluffybunbunkittens]

It's not unreasonable to argue that this means it de facto requires you to take the Magic action, but the wording of both spell scrolls and the Magic action are pretty ardent that the casting time of the spell is the time it takes to cast the spell.

You can't use a scroll with a bonus action because the rules state "Casting the spell by reading the scroll requires the spell’s normal casting time."

Can a Quicken metamagic then also not change how long it takes to cast a spell? Or... can class features actually change how things work.

Even if you could, it's still just delaying the attack to another turn by taking the ready action. Again, I don't see why it helps.

Because Rogues get a sneak attack per turn..? You go from one hit doing +Xd6, to two hits doing +Xd6 damage.

 

[Oofta]

The way I read the rules the Theif Use an Object overrides this:

Use an Object. Take the Utilize action, or take the Magic action to use a magic item that requires that action.

A scroll of Truestrike is a magic item that requires the Magic action (based on the text you quoted) .... so you can use it.

- nm -

Apparently I'm dense tonight. I still don't think it works but that's a different issue.

 

[fluffybunbunkittens]

True strike just makes it so you use your spell casting modifier for attack and damage instead of dexterity.

...an attack which happens when you cast it...

 

[ECMO3]

True Strike just replaces strength or dex attack modifier with your spell attack modifier and it takes an action to cast, not a bonus action.

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It also does extra damage, starting with 1d6 extra at 5th level and going up from there.

 

[Oofta]

...an attack which happens when you cast it...

Yeah, I see said the blind man.

In any case, I disagree that it's a bonus action because there is no magic action associated to the scroll itself. The scroll just lets you cast the spell by reading it off the scroll. The time required to cast the spell is dependent on the spell being cast. If you were casting off a scroll, Misty Step would require a bonus action, True Strike is an action, Alarm takes a minute.

 

[fluffybunbunkittens]

In any case, I disagree that it's a bonus action because there is no magic action associated to the scroll itself.

You are free to explain how a scroll, a magic item, then is to be used without using the Magic action.

Otherwise it's a magic item + Magic action = exactly what Fast Hands says.

 

[Oofta]

You are free to explain how a scroll, a magic item, then is to be used without using the Magic action.

Otherwise it's a magic item + Magic action = exactly what Fast Hands says.

I just disagree. I've given how I'm going to rule when I DM and my reasoning.

 

[DrJawaPhD]

While I am mostly enjoying this new edition, I'm finding a lot of these... "almost too good" combos. Considering how there clearly has been some oversights (I'm looking at you, conjure minor elemental!), I can't help but wonder if the designers intended for this to happen?

This is not an oversight or "almost too good" combo, or even anything remotely new. Securing a reliable method for two Sneak Attacks per round has been a staple of any good powergaming optimized Rogue build since forever. Between held action shenanigans or support from a teammate (dissonant whispers, order cleric, etc), there are many ways to pull this off. Even with 2x Sneak Attack per round, Rogues are on the weak side in terms of damage and only really shine in terms of their non-combat contributions

So I still don't see the point. True strike doesn't guarantee sneak attack, you can't cast it as a bonus action off a scroll, ready is still an action.

The main point of True Strike here is to obtain a new method of attacking via Bonus Action (which you are calling into question, I'm not sure the correct answer there)

As far as whether you Ready a True Strike cantrip or Ready a standard Attack Action, I don't think it really matters. Situationally, radiant damage may be better than piercing but you're likely giving up +hit/dam if your Dex is higher than Int. Or if you dipped Sorcerer to learn True Strike then Innate Sorcery could provide advantage and may be worth it I dunno.

 

[I'm A Banana]

Can a Quicken metamagic then also not change how long it takes to cast a spell? Or... can class features actually change how things work.

Apples and oranges.

Quickened spell changes the casting time of the spell for one casting.

Using a scroll requires casting the spell. Each spell has its own casting time, which you use when you cast the spell.

By my reading, that also means that sorcs can use Quicken Spell on scrolls that they use. If you want to rule scrolls can all be used as a bonus action as a thief, that'd probably also mean that sorcs can't metamagic their scrolls.

I'd wager that in the DMG there'll be an abundance of magic items that specify you take the Magic action to do something with them (what in 2014 might've been called "activating an item"). Though, I'd also wager that any magic item that involves duplicating a spell would use the same action as that spell. But maybe the 2024 DMG will specify that the action you use to draw something out of a bag of tricks is a Magic action, or that throwing a bead from a bead of force is a Magic action, or that the action you use to discern the distance and direction to a dragon with your dragon scale mail is a Magic action.

By my reading, taking the "Magic" action involves using magic. Casting a spell is one way to use magic, and scrolls let you cast spells. Using magic items is another way to use magic, and certain magic items let you use the Magic action. These are distinct uses of the Magic action, though (in the same way that attacking with a bow and attacking with an axe are distinct uses of the Attack action)

 

[Ancalagon]

You can't use a scroll with a bonus action because the rules state "Casting the spell by reading the scroll requires the spell’s normal casting time."

Yes, that is the general rule. But remember, from the PHB:

"Exceptions Supersede General Rules

General rules govern each part of the game. For example, the combat rules tell you that melee attacks use Strength and ranged attacks use Dexterity. That’s a general rule, and a general rule is in effect as long as something in the game doesn’t explicitly say otherwise.

The game also includes elements—class features, feats, weapon properties, spells, magic items, monster abilities, and the like—that sometimes contradict a general rule. When an exception and a general rule disagree, the exception wins. For example, if a feature says you can make melee attacks using your Charisma, you can do so, even though that statement disagrees with the general rule."

Even if you could, it's still just delaying the attack to another turn by taking the ready action. Again, I don't see why it helps. True strike doesn't grant advantage so it doesn't guarantee sneak attack. It's less useful than using a bonus action to hide and ready a ranged attack.

I'm not sure if this is an issue with the people explaining the move writing poorly, or the concept being hard to understand. So, in details:

Step 0: be a thief/level 1 dip caster and have one or more scroll

Step 1: Be in a position where a sneak attack is almost garanteed - your foe is in base contact with an ally, for example.

Step 2: use the fast hand ability to cast true strike as a bonus action. 2024 true strike "you make one attack with the weapon used in the spell’s casting" . Hopefully this attack lands and you deliver sneak attack damage.

Step 3: Ready an action - to attack the same target - and set the trigger to be something you know will happen almost immediately after your turn is done (if you know the initiative order, this should not be hard).

Step 4: the action is triggered, take the attack, and if you hit, once again deliver sneak attack damage

tada, 2 sneak attacks in a round!

So I still don't see the point. True strike doesn't guarantee sneak attack, you can't cast it as a bonus action off a scroll, ready is still an action.

True strike does not guarantee the sneak attack no, you have to engineer the situation. But it's not very hard to do so. And since the exception (the thief's ability) trumps the general (casting a spell on a scroll takes its normal length), you can cast a spell off a scroll.