D&D (2024) Thief Rogue / True Strike

[Ancalagon]

Eh, there's some debate in that reading.

Fast Hands lets you take the Magic action to use a magic item that requires the action as a bonus action.

A spell scroll itself doesn't require you to take the Magic action to use it. It requires that you "cast the spell using its normal casting time." That does mean you have to take the Magic action, but it's not required by the scroll, it's required by the spell itself.

It's not unreasonable to argue that this means it de facto requires you to take the Magic action, but the wording of both spell scrolls and the Magic action are pretty ardent that the casting time of the spell is the time it takes to cast the spell.

That is a very good point - I think we'll have to wait for the DMG and more magic item rules to really know!

Though, yeah, still not the end of the world if your interpretation differs and you want to allow wizard/rogues to cast cantrip scrolls as a bonus action. Still such a great effort for such a small win.

reliably doing 2 sneak attacks/round is not "small" IMO.

 

[mellored]

Just to check
Are scrolls listed as magic items?

Though I guess it doesn't matter since you can use the utilize action as we.

 

[mellored]

Also.

Using up your reaction isn't nothing. You lose out on uncanny dodge.

Still worth it, but it's not strictly double power.

 

[ECMO3]

Situationally, radiant damage may be better than piercing but you're likely giving up +hit/dam if your Dex is higher than Int.

If you are a Rogue using Truestrike it is a safe bet your casting stat is your highest stat, and that will most commonly be Charisma I think.

This has been a very common build choice on the few Rogues I have seen so far.

 

[mellored]

If you are a Rogue using Truestrike it is a safe bet your casting stat is your highest stat, and that will most commonly be Charisma I think.

This has been a very common build choice on the few Rogues I have seen so far.

True.

And if your using Charisma to attack, then your Dex, AC, stealth, and initiative is lower.

 

[Pauln6]

I think the Thief's ability is intended to represent cutting the right corners to cast a spell quickly balanced by the chance of failure. Taking a level of spell-caster can't remove the chance of failure but expertise could, so this makes me nervous.

We've never really used scrolls in our campaign. I always thought that having so many spells on hand seemed a bit powerful and the ones carried over from previous editions the players just seem to forget. They used to be very bulky in terms of encumbrance in previous editions which was a limiting factor. Is it just cost and availability that now limits them?

I think this combo works but I am not sure it is so great that it is worth bulking up with scrolls to pull it off a lot.

 

[StitchedSpartan]

If you are a Rogue using Truestrike it is a safe bet your casting stat is your highest stat, and that will most commonly be Charisma I think.

This has been a very common build choice on the few Rogues I have seen so far.

I get the impression Thief Rogues will specialize more into Intelligence for their attacks using True Strike (this allows them to eventually cast even 9th level Spell Scrolls and also reliably craft Scrolls with Arcana) while also investing in Dexterity for AC and Initiative

 

[StitchedSpartan]

Eh, there's some debate in that reading.

Fast Hands lets you take the Magic action to use a magic item that requires the action as a bonus action.

A spell scroll itself doesn't require you to take the Magic action to use it. It requires that you "cast the spell using its normal casting time." That does mean you have to take the Magic action, but it's not required by the scroll, it's required by the spell itself.

It's not unreasonable to argue that this means it de facto requires you to take the Magic action, but the wording of both spell scrolls and the Magic action are pretty ardent that the casting time of the spell is the time it takes to cast the spell.

I wouldn't let Fast Hands let you cast spell scrolls as a bonus action. Pretty clearly not RAI, even if it is debatable RAW.

Though, yeah, still not the end of the world if your interpretation differs and you want to allow wizard/rogues to cast cantrip scrolls as a bonus action. Still such a great effort for such a small win.

Thief Rogue is pretty explicitly intended to be able to cast Spell Scrolls, its level 13 ability is entirely based around them

 

[I'm A Banana]

Thief Rogue is pretty explicitly intended to be able to cast Spell Scrolls, its level 13 ability is entirely based around them

Oh, I'm not saying they can't cast spells from Spell Scrolls. I'm just saying they can't do it as a Bonus Action using Fast Hands. They use the spell's casting time (the level 13 feature reiterates the language that when you use a scroll, you use it to cast a spell, which to my reading means you are not activating it using the Magic action).

The Magic action itself is defined as being taken when you cast a spell with a casting time of an action, OR use a feature or magic item that requires a Magic action to be activated, heavily implying that these are two different things you can do with your Magic action.

If that Rogue was Sorcerer with Quicken Spell, they could use Quicken Spell to cast that scroll as a Bonus Action, though that is a more limited sphere in that it consumes some resources and is a higher-level requirement. Still probably viable if you want the holy grail of 2 SA/rd, though! Was also viable in 2014, I'd think.

 

[StitchedSpartan]

Oh, I'm not saying they can't cast spells from Spell Scrolls. I'm just saying they can't do it as a Bonus Action using Fast Hands. They use the spell's casting time (the level 13 feature reiterates the language that when you use a scroll, you use it to cast a spell, which to my reading means you are not activating it using the Magic action).

The Magic action itself is defined as being taken when you cast a spell with a casting time of an action, OR use a feature or magic item that requires a Magic action to be activated, heavily implying that these are two different things you can do with your Magic action.

If that Rogue was Sorcerer with Quicken Spell, they could use Quicken Spell to cast that scroll as a Bonus Action, though that is a more limited sphere in that it consumes some resources and is a higher-level requirement. Still probably viable if you want the holy grail of 2 SA/rd, though! Was also viable in 2014, I'd think.

The level 13 feature says:

You have learned how to maximize use of magic items, granting you the following benefits.

Attunement. You can attune to up to four magic items at once.


Charges. Whenever you use a magic item property that expends charges, roll 1d6. On a roll of 6, you use the property without expending the charges.


Scrolls. You can use any Spell Scroll, using Intelligence as your spellcasting ability for the spell. If the spell is a cantrip or level 1 spell, you can cast it reliably. If the scroll contains a higher-level spell, you must first succeed on an Intelligence (Arcana) check (DC 10 plus the spell’s level). On a successful check, you cast the spell from the scroll. On a failed check, the scroll disintegrates.

Implying that spell scrolls are magic items

I understand that there is no "Magic" action listed under Spell Scrolls in the PHB but they are magic items that you cast a spell with when used, casting a spell is considered to be the Magic action

A similar ruling related to this class was brought up in the older version of Thief that implies Spell Scrolls are magic items that you use

Sage Advice

Does the Thief’s Use Magic Device feature allow them to use spell scrolls?
Yes. The intent is that a Thief can use spell scrolls with Use Magic Device.

DMG page 141 is also of some help here (Casting Spells):

If you don't have a spellcasting ability—perhaps you're a rogue withthe Use Magic Device feature—your spellcasting ability modifier is +0for the item...