D&D General 50 Years. The Least Popular Class Is......

[Ancalagon]

Nah. Spoony bards sucking was a meme in 3e too, though some not terrible bard prcs were really fun too.

But I'm saying that the 4e bard was gold, and the 5e bard rocks.

I can't speak about the 4e one, but I think making the bard a full caster was a mistake.

 

[Zardnaar]

This in itself is a fascinating concept. (pardon me as I take a tangeant, I swear I will answer your main point in another post!)

2e (and 1e?) had saving throws based on the level of the target. The competence of the caster or the power of the spell had no impact (although the type of spell could make a difference - save vs death, or save vs spells for example).

So under that paradigm, as a caster, at low levels almost all your save spells would hit , and a high level caster would see most of their save spells fail.

In 3e, it was much better, because the save odds were based on the level of the spell, the competence of the caster, and the level of the target. It meant however that low level save spells eventually became obsolete.

4e = ?

In 5e, save odds are based on the competence of the caster and level of the target, but not by the spell level.

This has the consequence that low level save spell do not become obsolete. A web spell still works fine in a high level fight.

What is the "best" system? I guess it depends on what outcome you prefer. I really do like the 5e "end state", but I readily admit it may not work the best for everyone.

We're playing both 5E and OSR same week.

Since 3.0 it's the main cause of caster/martial imbalance imho.

Higher level AD&D a fighter was still useful to have around due to saves and SR/M
R.

5E T-Rex fails it's saves 75% of the time approximately. OSR one succeeds around 75% of the time depending on the save.

People only think 5E fireball overpowered. It's not it's only OP compared to other direct damage spells.

Dungeon Dudes rated the 2024 invoker a B tier subclass. Looks good on paper but it makes you better at a mediocre option in 5E meta.

 

[Snarf Zagyg]

I can't speak about the 4e one, but I think making the bard a full caster was a mistake.

I can't speak about the 4e one, but I think making the bard a full caster was a mistake.
-Abraham Lincoln


Probably his most famous quote, and words to live by.

 

[Mephista]

I can't speak about the 4e one, but I think making the bard a full caster was a mistake.
-Abraham Lincoln


Probably his most famous quote, and words to live by.

The real reason JWB wanted revenge

 

[Zardnaar]

I can't speak about the 4e one, but I think making the bard a full caster was a mistake.

5E bards a great class but poor bard.

It's more like the 3.5 beguiler on steroids than a traditional bard.

 

[Ancalagon]

We're playing both 5E and OSR same week.

Since 3.0 it's the main cause of caster/martial imbalance imho.

Higher level AD&D a fighter was still useful to have around due to saves and SR/M
R.

It was brutal. Not only did high hit dice monster have great save, many of them had magic resistance!

And in 2e, most high level spells were slow to cast and thus easier to interrupt.

People only think 5E fireball overpowered. It's not it's only OP compared to other direct damage spells.

Dungeon Dudes rated the 2024 invoker a B tier subclass. Looks good on paper but it makes you better at a mediocre option in 5E meta.

HP has been creeping up for a while. A 2e ogre had 19 hp on average. A 3e ogre had 29 hp. A 5e ogre has almost 60 hp!

But fireball damage is essentially the same...

Damage spells do not keep up in 5e, but control spells do.

 

[Lanefan]

Played a couple of illusionists in 1st AD&D (with added gnome awesomeness); Ive seen them played really effective in Dragonquest and Rolemaster BUT i cant recall anyone major in that field in 3.X/PF/5th.

The best and longest-lasting 3e character I had was a direct attempt to recreate a 1e Illusionist using 3e rules: specialize in Illusion, ban Evokation, hyper-focus on Illusion spells, feats, etc. Mechanically, it worked out great despite having rolled awful starting stats; but thematically still probably played a bit too much like a non-blast Wizard.

 

[Lanefan]

And so on, and so forth. Create a wall of force, nobody is running headlong into it. Create an illusion of a wall of force, everyone is up and touching it, as it's obviously fake.

Given that I've always had it that Walls of Force are completely invisible, I'd say it'd be mighty hard to create an illusion of one...

And that's before we get into all the monsters who, over the years, have various immunities to illusions in general. Something thankfully 5e is light on, but then you can have even lower tier threats with stuff like:

View attachment 381062
View attachment 381063

IME the biggest headache for Illusionists are mindless undead - if there's no mind, there's nothing to trick.

 

[Lanefan]

If there's a wall that keeps your hand from going through it, then it's no longer an illusion.

I mean, I want illusions to be a viable option, I really do. Every once in a while it is. But it's still just a magical hologram, which brings certain limitations.

A well-cast Spectral Force should IMO be as believable as the holodeck on the Enterprise, and that includes touch all day long.

 

[Oofta]

A well-cast Spectral Force should IMO be as believable as the holodeck on the Enterprise, and that includes touch all day long.

Given all the variations and editions of D&D and illusions it's not a surprise that there is an exception here and there. There's an exception to every rule. Except maybe @Snarf Zagyg's hatred of bards. I don't think there's any exception to that.