D&D General 50 Years. The Least Popular Class Is......

[Snarf Zagyg]

Given all the variations and editions of D&D and illusions it's not a surprise that there is an exception here and there. There's an exception to every rule. Except maybe @Snarf Zagyg's hatred of bards. I don't think there's any exception to that.

Every rule has an exception.

And the exception to the rule that every rule has an exception is that there are no exceptions to my undying hatred of Bards.

There are only two certainties in life-

1. The eventual heat death of the universe.
2. My antipathy of bards.
3. My inability to make numbered lists that have the same number as I said they would have.

 

[Zardnaar]

It was brutal. Not only did high hit dice monster have great save, many of them had magic resistance!

And in 2e, most high level spells were slow to cast and thus easier to interrupt.



HP has been creeping up for a while. A 2e ogre had 19 hp on average. A 3e ogre had 29 hp. A 5e ogre has almost 60 hp!

But fireball damage is essentially the same...

Damage spells do not keep up in 5e, but control spells do.

I'm aware. Scaling damage spells haven't been a problem since 1989. Rogues have similar problem. Less than 3.5 damage, 5E hit points.

3.5 remember the broken warmage?

My D&D using large parts of 5E has scaling boom spells.

 

[EzekielRaiden]

The wizard splinters along sub types since 2E.
I suspect one of them is less popular than the illusionist and druid.

Main class probably druid or monk.

Ironically, I'd actually say the 3.5e Wizard subtypes, Warmage/Beguiler/Dread Necromancer (and arguably Shadowcaster), were actually quite popular--but that's because players had begun to understand that the base Wizard is stupidly overpowered, while these themed, focused casters are much better while still being very powerful due to being full spellcasters.

 

[James Gasik]

Given that I've always had it that Walls of Force are completely invisible, I'd say it'd be mighty hard to create an illusion of one...


IME the biggest headache for Illusionists are mindless undead - if there's no mind, there's nothing to trick.

Sorry, bad example, the Wall of Force is invisible, lol. But you can substitute any control spell that people wouldn't want to get near or touch. Like say the old Prismatic Wall/Prismatic Sphere.

 

[James Gasik]

ie, "illusions that affect the sense of touch". No idea what I was thinking of, I'll chalk it up to my oldmanitis. I could have sworn there was an illusion in an older edition that affected all five senses that wasn't completely in the subject's mind, but I'm not finding it.

Of course that just adds another problem to illusions- if your spell effect can be foiled by a thrown rock or 11' pole*, it's value is completely dependent on DM discretion. How likely they feel the target is subject to being tricked, which may have nothing to do with static numbers like save DC's and the like.

I know, much of the game is already in this space, but at least with effects like Fireball, the DM needs a bit more justification to say "it doesn't work", lol.

*because there are things you wouldn't want to touch with a 10' pole, naturally.

 

[James Gasik]

I'm aware. Scaling damage spells haven't been a problem since 1989. Rogues have similar problem. Less than 3.5 damage, 5E hit points.

3.5 remember the broken warmage?

My D&D using large parts of 5E has scaling boom spells.

As an aside, the only real stab at making spells scale in damage in decades has been giving fireball and lightning bolt 2d6 more damage (which isn't really enough, as they can still fail to kill even a CR 1!). And yet I cannot believe the amount of posters I see who say that these spells need to be nerfed back down to 6d6!

 

[James Gasik]

Ironically, I'd actually say the 3.5e Wizard subtypes, Warmage/Beguiler/Dread Necromancer (and arguably Shadowcaster), were actually quite popular--but that's because players had begun to understand that the base Wizard is stupidly overpowered, while these themed, focused casters are much better while still being very powerful due to being full spellcasters.

I know people who liked the Warmage. The Beguiler not so much because the spells they focus on tended to be ones that a high number of foes were immune to.

The Dread Necromancer has the same problem as any Wizard who dabbles in that school- they get Animate Dead too late.

Clerics can do this at level 5, Wizards have to wait til level 7, and Dread Necromancers have to wait until level eight. Bleah.

 

[James Gasik]

Given that I've always had it that Walls of Force are completely invisible, I'd say it'd be mighty hard to create an illusion of one...


IME the biggest headache for Illusionists are mindless undead - if there's no mind, there's nothing to trick.

At least in 3.5 there were some illusions (figments) that mindless undead would believe until their redying day.

 

[Lanefan]

ie, "illusions that affect the sense of touch". No idea what I was thinking of, I'll chalk it up to my oldmanitis. I could have sworn there was an illusion in an older edition that affected all five senses that wasn't completely in the subject's mind, but I'm not finding it.

Spectral Force, I think. 3rd-level Illusionist spell in the 1e PH.

Of course that just adds another problem to illusions- if your spell effect can be foiled by a thrown rock or 11' pole*, it's value is completely dependent on DM discretion. How likely they feel the target is subject to being tricked, which may have nothing to do with static numbers like save DC's and the like.

I know, much of the game is already in this space, but at least with effects like Fireball, the DM needs a bit more justification to say "it doesn't work", lol.

*because there are things you wouldn't want to touch with a 10' pole, naturally.

Except if you believe the illusion the 11-foot pole will "hit" an obstacle. The thrown rock won't, as it's independent of you, but even then if the illusionist is on the ball (remember, she has to maintain concentration and keep it going) she'll work in the sound and look of your rock hitting the wall and bouncing to the floor; thus disguising the sound of your rock actually landing wherever it lands.

 

[Zardnaar]

Ironically, I'd actually say the 3.5e Wizard subtypes, Warmage/Beguiler/Dread Necromancer (and arguably Shadowcaster), were actually quite popular--but that's because players had begun to understand that the base Wizard is stupidly overpowered, while these themed, focused casters are much better while still being very powerful due to being full spellcasters.

Popular online yes. I liked the beguiler more than warmage. Layers wouldn't play them though over say wizards. And wizards weren't popular either despite their power in my games.

3.5 wizard isn't that bad at levels actually
actually play at least phb only.

Splat books and high level though.....

May have been rereading a bit for my D&D. Even 4E got mined for content along with 3.5.

Main problem with 3.5 is the engine. If you look at B/X, 4E or 5E engine with 3.5 it starts looking a lot better.