D&D (2024) Thief Rogue / True Strike

[Mistwell]

Which, unfortunately, is at least as debatable as whether scrolls qualify for Fast Hands.

If I, as a cleric, choose MI and obtain a Wizard spell, and it says I can cast it with my other cleric class spell slots, is it not now part of my class spell list and usable on a scroll?

 

[MarkB]

If I, as a cleric, choose MI and obtain a Wizard spell, and it says I can cast it with my other wizard class spell slots, is it not now part of my class spell list and usable on a scroll?

I said it was debatable, not that I wanted to debate it. I could see it going either way.

 

[LudicSavant]

Per page 236, spells that don't require a bonus action or reaction use a casting time of 1 Magic Action.

And scrolls use the same action type as the original spell.

 

[Oofta]

Per page 236, spells that don't require a bonus action or reaction use a casting time of 1 Magic Action.

And scrolls use the same action type as the original spell.

But the scroll itself has no action associated to it. The item itself does not require a Magic action, the spell may or may not.

 

[abirdcall]

Are people who are arguing for this also arguing that any magic item that assists in casting a spell (eg. +1 to save DC) also works?

The only difference with scrolls is that they are one use.

 

[James Gasik]

So we're ok with a Thief using a Wand of Fireballs as a bonus action, but using a scroll of Fireball as a bonus action is right out!

 

[abirdcall]

So we're ok with a Thief using a Wand of Fireballs as a bonus action, but using a scroll of Fireball as a bonus action is right out!

Depends on what the wand of fireballs says you do.

Do you use it to cast a spell?

Or do you use a magic action to launch a fireball?

Some magic items are very powerful and will let you do amazing things.

 

[Eric Olson1]

As a summary (so we don't have page of repeated statements), I’ll try to break down the arguments {for} and {against} having “fast hands” work with scrolls. I'll try to be fair and represent, but we all have bias)

First, these are the rules as written:
* Beginning in 2024, Magic [action] is defined to be one of three subtypes:

1. you cast a spell that has a casting time of an action
2. use a feature that requires a Magic action to be activated
3. use a magic item that requires a Magic action to be activated

* Fast Hands: “…take the Magic action to use a magic item that requires that action.”

Argument {for}: the text is general English and any sub-type of magic action should count. Essentially:
As long a magic item is involved, any magic action should count as a “fast hands” bonus action.

Argument {against}: The text is deliberate and precise. It resembles magic [action] subtype 3 on purpose.
If the activation of the magic item causes the effect, “fast hands” applies: subtype (3).
Casting a spell while “doing something” with a magic item is still casting the spell – subtype (1). This is a mentally focused spellcasting process, assisted by the item, but not sped up by “fast hands”.
The magic action can’t be both type (1) and (3) because the definition says “or”

* Magic items (so far just from the 2024 D&D beyond Uni-unicorn adventure) seem to fall into 2 types:

1. “you can <do something> to cast <spell>” -- seems to align with magic [action] type (1)
2. “as a magic action <you make some effect happen> -- seems to align with magic [action] type (3)

* Scrolls match magic item type (a) when they state “you read the scroll and cast the spell”

Argument {for}: The word “read” counts as “use” for a scroll.
Argument {against}: <do something> words like “read” or “expend a charge” are describing conditions, not actions. “Cast the spell” is the magic action. Reading, holding, wearing, expending charges don't take budgeted time.
Plus the PHB says scrolls replace the "prepare in your mind" and "material component" parts of spellcasting.

So as it stands:
RAW: strict grammar=does not work on scrolls, general grammar=it would work

RAI: we just don’t know yet. We only have this verbal summary of “fast hands” by J Craword:
"The thief will be able to take a magic item that requires a magic action for activation and thanks to fast hands, activate it as a bonus action." (bold text is slightly different than the PHB rule -- seems to being intent closer to magic type 3)

Historically (I may be mistaken here, I skipped from AD&D to 5th):
4th edition allowed scrolls for fast hands and it was a problem. 2014 solved this problem by nerfing ‘magic items’ completely from “fast hands”

My opinion is WOC would not restore the problem of 4th edition without plans to control any abuse. Ultimately, give the DM a “tool” to decide which items work and which ones do not work with “fast hands”. Magic items type (a) don’t work and magic items (b) will work. The complete DM will prove my opinion true or false.

So.....
Will we get a wand that says “expend a charge to cast a fireball” or “as a magic action you cause a fireball ...”

As I DM, I could be fine with either interpretation. At Thief level 11, when they understand scrolls – go for it. Maybe even a 1 level dip of wizard. That is fun.
If they spend extreme effort creating a build to abuse this…. Then I’ll read the rules strictly.

 

[I'm A Banana]

Depends on what the wand of fireballs says you do.

Do you use it to cast a spell?

Or do you use a magic action to launch a fireball?

Some magic items are very powerful and will let you do amazing things.

The 2014 edition for Wand of Fireballs says you can use an action expend a charge to cast the fireball spell.

The 2024 version could have the same language (and in that case wouldn't be kosher for Fast Hands).

The 2024 version could also have different language. If it says you can use a Magic action to expend a charge and cast the fireball spell, I'd wager it'd work with Fast Hands, and so would work with a wizard/thief.

 

[abirdcall]

We have monsters now that have abilities that look very much like spells but aren't. They are just innate abilities that use an action and sometimes have a cool down.

I suspect for magic item activation it won't say 'cast' at all.

It will just describe the effects of fireball.