D&D General Warlocks: Charisma vs Intelligence

[Charlaquin]

I like the idea of sorcerers being wisdom-based. They feel the subtle flows of magic (almost "Luke, use the force"). I don't know about clerics being int-based, but I think you could make a good case for rangers being the types that study their prey (and thus use int). Alchemy, traps, weapons, skills, maybe a pet, some magic: the ranger tries to have the right tool for the job.

I like Intelligence cleric because scholarship is a big part of clergical work. Just because they’re studying religious text rather than academic text doesn’t mean it isn’t still primarily an intellectual exercise.

 

[Ashrym]

We're literally talking about fluff here, like two people arguing about whether or not a hot dog counts as a sandwich or not. We're looking at the same thing and saying "Yeah, that makes perfect sense for intelligence" and "No, that doesn't seem like intelligence at all" at the exact same time.

"Is a hot dog a sandwich or not?" is old. We should all realize by now that it's a sandwich. The real question is if coffee counts as a soup or not. ;-)

 

[EzekielRaiden]

"Is a hot dog a sandwich or not?" is old. We should all realize by now that it's a sandwich. The real question is if coffee counts as a soup or not. ;-)

Nah.

The correct answer to "Is a hot dog a sandwich?" is to say, "The term is what we use it for. So, is it useful for a hot dog to be a sandwich?"

I find that the vast majority of people think it's not actually useful. Even the ones who argue for "it's a sandwich" will usually admit, if you press them, that it's really a loss of utility to do so.

 

[MechaTarrasque]

I like Intelligence cleric because scholarship is a big part of clergical work. Just because they’re studying religious text rather than academic text doesn’t mean it isn’t still primarily an intellectual exercise.

Invoker was my favorite 4e class (slightly edging out Warden and Warlock), and int was one of the stats that some invoker powers used, so "divine wizard" is something I am good with, although that might work better as an actual wizard subclass.

I tend to think of wisdom as being able to quiet the conscious mind so you can hear what your subconscious, your god, your years of training, or nature in general is trying to tell you. Wisdom is mostly discipline, charisma is mostly capacity, and intelligence is a pretty even mix.

 

[humble minion]

I like Intelligence cleric because scholarship is a big part of clergical work. Just because they’re studying religious text rather than academic text doesn’t mean it isn’t still primarily an intellectual exercise.

I like the idea of alternate prime stats for cleric because it gives you an option to play a cleric who ISN'T a perceptive bastion of immovable willpower. You should have the option to play a goodhearted cleric who's nonetheless a bit oblivious and prey to the temptations of the flesh, for example. I'd personally allow Charisma-based clerics, but intelligence could work too. The empathic cleric vs the outgoing preachery type cleric vs the scholarly, contemplative cleric.

 

[Xeviat]

Somehow I forgot that

Easy to do since gen 1 only had tornado or something.

 

[Seramus]

Nah.

The correct answer to "Is a hot dog a sandwich?" is to say, "The term is what we use it for. So, is it useful for a hot dog to be a sandwich?"

"It's not a sandwich, your honor! I don't have to adhere to the US FDA safety regulations for sandwiches!"

But I agree the government is probably far less interested in culinary utility, and far more interested in not creating separate rules for every minor variation of bread + stuff.

 

[EzekielRaiden]

"It's not a sandwich, your honor! I don't have to adhere to the US FDA safety regulations for sandwiches!"

A court of law saying, "It is simpler, easier, and more beneficial to consumers that laws written for 'sandwiches' apply to hot dogs" is, itself, a utility argument. It's not about simplicity of description, it's about simplicity of regulation. No need to redouble effort when the same safety and food-purity laws apply cleanly to both things.

But I agree the government is probably far less interested in culinary utility, and far more interested in not creating separate rules for every minor variation of bread + stuff.

Exactly.

To the average speaker, a hot dog is not a sandwich; if you refer to a hot dog as "that sandwich," e.g. by saying, "can you please hand me that sandwich," most fluent English speakers would get at least mildly confused. Most would ask you to clarify: "Did you mean this hot dog?" This implies people get that hot dogs and sandwiches are similar/related, but not so much that they're totally interchangeable in all circumstances.

To a judge, civil servant, legislator, or lawyer? The similarities far outweigh the differences. But this can be true even if things are completely NOT the same, or are things most people would definitely reject as being called "sandwiches," such as tacos (which, yes, there is a legal precedent out there somewhere that tacos are classifiable as "sandwiches".)

Finally, both your metric and mine reject the idea that coffee is a soup. It is a steeped and brewed beverage.

Instead, I offer you this tidbit: Broth is meat tea. You steep meat in boiling or near boiling water in order to extract nutrients from the material, which is discarded when the steeping process is complete. Various forms of instant "meat tea" exist, and dried material can be reconstituted to make it quickly. It's sold in both full liquid form and concentrated/dried form. Legally there's not all that much different between them. It just feels weird and uncomfortable to say that you're "steeping" meat and bones to extract their flavor and nutrients.

 

[Charlaquin]

I like the idea of alternate prime stats for cleric because it gives you an option to play a cleric who ISN'T a perceptive bastion of immovable willpower. You should have the option to play a goodhearted cleric who's nonetheless a bit oblivious and prey to the temptations of the flesh, for example. I'd personally allow Charisma-based clerics, but intelligence could work too. The empathic cleric vs the outgoing preachery type cleric vs the scholarly, contemplative cleric.

Wisdom isn’t really willpower these days. It’s still called Wisdom for legacy reasons, but if you look at what it’s actually used for, it’s functionally awareness - both sensory acuity and intuition.

 

[OptionalRule]

At the end of the day, the concept of a Warlock is about some sort of a relationship with an external entity. This is Charisma in DnD.