D&D (2024) PHB 2024 Is Hilariously Broken. Most OP of All Time?

[Mistwell]

Grappler feat. You move they move you're not in the same space/space. However the DM rules it you're gonna be able to put them somewhere.

A simple 5' step is easiest way to show it.

It's true that the rules have never specified how one moves another creature under grapple. I always assumed it worked how you propose.

My DM disagreed. Dragging for him is always directly behind you, and there is no ability to move your grappled target to the space you want. They always drag directly behind you.

The rule just says, "The grappler can drag or carry you when it moves" but that doesn't really help. And there's never been a rule that you can expend 5' of move to reposition someone. That's a houserule. It's one that makes sense to me, but it's true grappling might not work how you and I would think it would work.

 

[tetrasodium]

RAW doesn't care about this unwritten, unrealistic approach to dragging either.

If someone brings this approach to the table, frankly they are looking to cause problems. Who has time for that? Someone, go find another game to bother.

It's reasonable to assume that the very debate that multiple posters have been engaging in for a few pages now is almost certainly why some past editions have been explicit about grapple involving moving into & sharing a space. This finger pointing over who is modifying the foundational core & who is embracing or complaining about the RAW itself is exactly why it should never have been printed with such obviously problematic wording even after playtest reports about it.

If only there were some revolutionary way a hypothetical publisher (like wotc) could provide updates to a published work after printing. Perhaps a list of errors in a printed work discovered after printing and shown with corrections could provide a clear indication of who at the table is using the wrong reading of the rule & provide a clear explanation for how it should be handled

 

[FrogReaver]

Spoiler: Spaghetti code

Yeah, I'm familiar with what spaghetti code means, thanks. My background is software architecture. It looks like I dropped in a metaphor that went over your head. I was trying to entertain you, not make you look dumb.

No idea why you quoted me here.

 

[Zardnaar]

It's true that the rules have never specified how one moves another creature under grapple. I always assumed it worked how you propose.

My DM disagreed. Dragging for him is always directly behind you, and there is no ability to move your grappled target to the space you want. They always drag directly behind you.

The rule just says, "The grappler can drag or carry you when it moves" but that doesn't really help. And there's never been a rule that you can expend 5' of move to reposition someone. That's a houserule. It's one that makes sense to me, but it's true grappling might not work how you and I would think it would work.

Well RAI seems to be you can move people around while grappled.

In you move left/right or up/down it seems like the person grappled would go with you?

There's no rule anywhere saying otherwise and you don't have to drag them either. Hell you can carry them so drag doesn't matter.

Push, pull or drag essentially doesn't matter. If you 5' step to the right or left the opponent if grappled would go with you if you wanted.

Doesn't seem that out of whack.

People seem to be confused with 3.5 and you enter their square.

Seems fairly clear how this works the hard part is getting the grapple condition.

 

[UngeheuerLich]

Well RAI seems to be you can move people around while grappled.

In you move left/right or up/down it seems like the person grappled would go with you?

There's no rule anywhere saying otherwise and you don't have to drag them either. Hell you can carry them so drag doesn't matter.

Push, pull or drag essentially doesn't matter. If you 5' step to the right or left the opponent if grappled would go with you if you wanted.

Doesn't seem that out of whack.

People seem to be confused with 3.5 and you enter their square.

Seems fairly clear how this works the hard part is getting the grapple condition.

The first thing you should do if you are grappled, grapple your grappler too. Just don't waste an action to escape.

Now you both have 0 movement speed.

 

[Ulorian - Agent of Chaos]

No idea why you quoted me here.

Quoting software fubar... sorry!

 

[Mistwell]

Well RAI seems to be you can move people around while grappled.

You can drag them behind you, or you can carry them in your space. I don't see anything saying or implying you can move them around you.

In you move left/right or up/down it seems like the person grappled would go with you?

Yes, the follow dragging behind you. There isn't any way to have them beside you, that I can tell. Even though I think there should be.

There's no rule anywhere saying otherwise and you don't have to drag them either. Hell you can carry them so drag doesn't matter.

You can carry them sure. That's in your arms, in your space. You otherwise drag them. Dragging means behind you. It would have to say you can carry them beside you, to carry them beside you. But if you're carrying them, they take zero damage from spikes on the ground...just you do.

Push, pull or drag essentially doesn't matter.

You cannot push them. You can pull them along behind you, which is another way of saying drag.

If you 5' step to the right or left the opponent if grappled would go with you if you wanted.

Just one 4' step, they don't move at all. If you move right 10' then yes they move with you, staying 5' beside you in the direction you moved. I see no way to drag someone across a spike strip, without the drager also taking the damage.

Doesn't seem that out of whack.

People seem to be confused with 3.5 and you enter their square.

Seems fairly clear how this works the hard part is getting the grapple condition.

You have yet to show any rule which says or implies you can drag or carry someone beside you as you move.

 

[Ulorian - Agent of Chaos]

It's reasonable to assume that the very debate that multiple posters have been engaging in for a few pages now is almost certainly why some past editions have been explicit about grapple involving moving into & sharing a space. This finger pointing over who is modifying the foundational core & who is embracing or complaining about the RAW itself is exactly why it should never have been printed with such obviously problematic wording even after playtest reports about it.

If only there were some revolutionary way a hypothetical publisher (like wotc) could provide updates to a published work after printing. Perhaps a list of errors in a printed work discovered after printing and shown with corrections could provide a clear indication of who at the table is using the wrong reading of the rule & provide a clear explanation for how it should be handled

Sure, if it stops 2.5 ENWorld posters from dragging someone beside them, I'm all for it!

I understand the general principle of what you're saying, but there has to be a line of reasonableness drawn somewhere, where a general common sense has to take over. In this particular instance, I feel like that line has been crossed. This seems to be an obvious non-problem to most... not sure if it warrants a special mention in the rules.

 

[tetrasodium]

Sure, if it stops 2.5 ENWorld posters from dragging someone beside them, I'm all for it!

I understand the general principle of what you're saying, but there has to be a line of reasonableness drawn somewhere, where a general common sense has to take over. In this particular instance, I feel like that line has been crossed. This seems to be an obvious non-problem to most... not sure if it warrants a special mention in the rules.

I was actually putting together a post about this when you responded & conveniently gave an even better jumping off point for it just before I as thinking about hitting submit

Where in the rules are people getting this "they always drag behind you"Can't drag beside you bit? Yesterday I spent a couple hours cutting & dragging (big) branches from a neighbor's tree out of the alley so they could be picked up when the Milton cleanup gets to the "collecting yard waste like branches" step and nearly all of it was dragged at my side because that's how human anatomy works when dragging big & awkward things.

Just to clear any "common sense says" type hurdles, none of it was capable of resisting my attempts to keep it grappled as I drug it & very little left a free hand capable of doing things like swinging a machete (or whirring the ficus sized "chainsaw")

 

[Zardnaar]

You can drag them behind you, or you can carry them in your space. I don't see anything saying or implying you can move them around you.

Yes, the follow dragging behind you. There isn't any way to have them beside you, that I can tell. Even though I think there should be.


You can carry them sure. That's in your arms, in your space. You otherwise drag them. Dragging means behind you. It would have to say you can carry them beside you, to carry them beside you. But if you're carrying them, they take zero damage from spikes on the ground...just you do.

You cannot push them. You can pull them along behind you, which is another way of saying drag.

Just one 4' step, they don't move at all. If you move right 10' then yes they move with you, staying 5' beside you in the direction you moved. I see no way to drag someone across a spike strip, without the drager also taking the damage.

You have yet to show any rule which says or implies you can drag or carry someone beside you as you move.

Counter arguement there's no rule saying you cant either.

You xan carry singing they're not in your space. Hey I didn't write it.

That's a 3.5 rule