D&D (2024) Do players really want balance?

[Micah Sweet]

im a bit behind so im not recognising the samurai character you're referencing but in-universe, which for this argument is the only position that matters IMO, zoro's sword abilities are not presented as any kind of supernatural, extraordinary perhaps, in the same way IRL that olympic athletes' feats are extraordinary, but not supernatural, people can just DO THAT in the world of one peice with no magic or special powers if they put in enough effort, zoro isn't using some special sauce to pull off his techniques except a hell of alot of weight training.

i'm very tired of this coming up every time this topic is broached, extraordinary martial techniques getting 'no true scotsman'ed' out of actually being considered TRUE martial techniques because they've become impressive enough that people decide 'well those can't be martial techniques just look at what they're doing' so they instead get assigned as 'it's not magic but no wait actually we are functionally considering it magic afterall with just a different name' '''supernatural'''

If you can't possibly do it in real life by skill alone, in what way is it not supernatural? And perhaps more importantly, why is that apparently a dirty word to you?

 

[CreamCloud0]

I just do not get why the labelling even matters. It is just pointless semantics.

Personally I want high level martials to be able to do mythical, wuxia stuff, and I don't need explanation for that beyond "this is fantasy world, and legendary heroes in it can just learn to do these things." That being said, 3e style labelling of such abilities as "extraordinary" or "supernatural" wouldn't really bother me, is just don't see the need for it.

probably so your fighter's sword technique can't get counterspelled or similar.

 

[Micah Sweet]

I just do not get why the labelling even matters. It is just pointless semantics.

Personally I want high level martials to be able to do mythical, wuxia stuff, and I don't need explanation for that beyond "this is fantasy world, and legendary heroes in it can just learn to do these things." That being said, 3e style labelling of such abilities as "extraordinary" or "supernatural" wouldn't really bother me, is just don't see the need for it.

Of course, WotC 5e generally doesn't even provide the degree of explanation (your quoted sentence or something like it) that you're asking for.

 

[Micah Sweet]

probably so your fighter's sword technique can't get counterspelled or similar.

Can't counterspell if it's not a spell, even if it's otherwise supernatural.

 

[CreamCloud0]

If you can't possibly do it in real life by skill alone, in what way is it not supernatural? And perhaps more importantly, why is that apparently a dirty word to you?

because these stories aren't happening in the real world and aren't measured by real life standards that's why it's not supernatural.
because it's about the THEMES and NARRATIVE and if i want to make my 100% mundane samurai with no magic mojo i want them to be as good as the wizard or the druid rather than being a third class adventuring citizen.

 

[Vaalingrade]

I just do not get why the labelling even matters. It is just pointless semantics.

Because different types of game elements interact in different ways.

Only keywording things properly isn't simple enough for the game somehow, so we can't do that.

 

[TwoSix]

because these stories aren't happening in the real world and aren't measured by real life standards that's why it's not supernatural.
because it's about the THEMES and NARRATIVE and if i want to make my 100% mundane samurai with no magic mojo i want them to be as good as the wizard or the druid rather than being a third class adventuring citizen.

Choosing whether "supernatural" is determined by reference to the real world or to the fictional setting is a common disagreement on these boards. Both uses are plausible and valid, which is why it's generally not worth arguing.

 

[Micah Sweet]

because these stories aren't happening in the real world and aren't measured by real life standards that's why it's not supernatural.
because it's about the THEMES and NARRATIVE and if i want to make my 100% mundane samurai with no magic mojo i want them to be as good as the wizard or the druid rather than being a third class adventuring citizen.

Ok, I think I get it. Themes and narrative aren't my priority. Things making sense in the context of the setting are, and unless I see something that explicitly says otherwise, I will continue to assume that the setting operates under real life rules as we understand them except in situations (like unexplained breaking of said rules) where it very clearly doesn't, in which case we're back to the supernatural for that situation.

So if your awesome samurai can cut something from 30 feet away without reach or throwing his weapon, for example, I can't see that as anything other than a supernatural ability, because that's what the setting demands.

 

[Micah Sweet]

Choosing whether "supernatural" is determined by reference to the real world or to the fictional setting is a common disagreement on these boards. Both uses are plausible and valid, which is why it's generally not worth arguing.

You're right. I should have let it go. We're not going to agree.

 

[bloodtide]

Death is not the only form of real risk. Death is not the only form of "ultimate failure."

Except it is not. Character Death is special. When it's said to just be one of many types of failure....it's odd that it is STILL opposed. Like if a DM was to say "this game will have 25 of the other ultimate failure types, plus character death", there are players that will complain and not like the death part.

I've seen it from several. I named some names above. I don't have the energy to go trawling for quotes, but I guarantee you it's something I've seen over and over on this forum. Stridently anti-player DMs are active participants on these boards. @bloodtide would be another example.

I got name dropped. And I'm strict and harsh, but not anti player. Though sure I don't care for bad players.