D&D (2024) Do players really want balance?

[Vaalingrade]

Except it is not. Character Death is special. When it's said to just be one of many types of failure....it's odd that it is STILL opposed. Like if a DM was to say "this game will have 25 of the other ultimate failure types, plus character death", there are players that will complain and not like the death part.

It's special because it's the boring one. Because it's the one that ends the character's story and removes them from the narrative.

 

[Maxperson]

That'd be why I said 'no concept anymore'.

3e recognized non-magical fantasy.

4e actively denoted martial as a power source.

5e gave up.

4e made the martial power source martial magic. It deemed some of the things in that power source as not magic in the traditional sense, which means those things were magic in a non-traditional sense. I.e. supernatural, but not magical.

"Martial: Martial powers are not magic in the traditional sense, although some martial powers stand well beyond the capabilities of ordinary mortals. Martial characters use their own strength and willpower to vanquish their enemies. Training and dedication replace arcane formulas and prayers to grant fighters, rangers, rogues, and warlords, among others, their power."

So 4e had it, but 5e had to be super simple to the point where they got rid of a lot of things that weren't complex and added to the game, like supernatural abilities.

 

[Lanefan]

I count AD&D dual wielding as "cheese", in the sense that it's a poorly-thought through rule that should be describing a relatively marginal fighting style difference, but that actually hugely changes the effectiveness of a melee-oriented character.

When saying "AD&D" do you mean 1e or 2e here?

I ask because IME dual-wielding in 1e in effect means trading defense for offense, and that loss of defense makes you that much more vunerable to getting knocked off before your increased offense (often at significant to-hit penalties) can carry the day.

2e, I think, made dual-wielding much more attractive.

EDIT: typos

 

[bloodtide]

It's special because it's the boring one. Because it's the one that ends the character's story and removes them from the narrative.

So it is NOTHING like all those other "failures" that are said to be just as bad? Sure sounds like Character Death is on a super high pedestal far about all those other types of failure.

 

[Vaalingrade]

4e made the martial power source martial magic.

It did not.

In no way can what the martial power source be construed as magic unless someone is making that stupid 'taunting is mind control' argument.

 

[Vaalingrade]

So it is NOTHING like all those other "failures" that are said to be just as bad? Sure sounds like Character Death is on a super high pedestal far about all those other types of failure.

That is not a good pedestal to be one. It has the crown of being the worse.

 

[Lanefan]

WotC is not an impartial curator of cultural artefacts. It's a commercial publisher.

In their position as the latter I personally would like them to also take on the mantle of the former, as it applies to historical D&D of which they are and remain the custodian.

And to some extent they've been doing just that.

 

[Micah Sweet]

4e made the martial power source martial magic. It deemed some of the things in that power source as not magic in the traditional sense, which means those things were magic in a non-traditional sense. I.e. supernatural, but not magical.

"Martial: Martial powers are not magic in the traditional sense, although some martial powers stand well beyond the capabilities of ordinary mortals. Martial characters use their own strength and willpower to vanquish their enemies. Training and dedication replace arcane formulas and prayers to grant fighters, rangers, rogues, and warlords, among others, their power."

So 4e had it, but 5e had to be super simple to the point where they got rid of a lot of things that weren't complex and added to the game, like supernatural abilities.

Yeah. 4e had that explanation I mentioned looking for.

 

[bloodtide]

That is not a good pedestal to be one. It has the crown of being the worse.

Ok, then we agree. Character Death is NOT one of a group of equal bad failure types.

 

[Vaalingrade]

Ok, then we agree. Character Death is NOT one of a group of equal bad failure types.

I'm am not engaging this weird rhetoric.