D&D (2024) Do players really want balance?


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You think so?
Yes.

That hundreds of thousands to millions of people are more impacted by marketing than the fun they are having at the table is the direct implication of what you are saying.
How? What precisely, because frankly I don't see that. Perhaps people should go by what I actually write and not what they read into it.

You want to be sarcastic about that to me? Fine. It was an opinion, not a moderator warning. If this blows up in a few pages because you've cheesed people off, though, you were informed beforehand.
Duly noted.

Our opinions differ, which I am fine with. I've said (repeatedly) simply that IMO the success of 5E is not due primarily to its design, most of which elements are built on prior editions, but more so due to the investment by WotC in marketing, influencers, wider spread acceptance of gaming and RPGs in general (born mostly from the evolution of the video game industry), and other factors such as the availablity of gaming materials, etc.
 
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Why are people so invested in "proving" that D&D isn't a great game or even a good game?
Who, exactly, is saying that? And can you quote the posts?

I mean I haven't read every post in this thread, so maybe I missed it?

Not because of "marketing" or "influencers" but, shock and surprise, it's a pretty good game that runs pretty smoothly.
See, and this makes me think you are talking about something I wrote? If I am wrong and you are referring to someone else, my apologies.

If, however, this is (more?) directed in response to my posts, you should note I never said 5E didn't have a good (or at least decent IMO) design and I am in the group of players who find it "acceptable". It isn't bad, and I never said I thought it was. I have said I know other people don't like it--but that should hardly be surprising to anyone. We all know no RPG is perfect.

Anyway, I hope that clears up my position at least, if people are thinking it is more "negative" than is really is. 🤷‍♂️
 
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You state just below, that the success of the game is not due primarily to its design, but to marketing and influencers.

Ergo, people who play (who number in the millions) broadly are more influenced to play it by that marketing and influencers than by the game itself. How are we to take it otherwise? Do you have some other definition of, "due primarily," that we aren't aware of?

Perhaps people should go by what I actually write and not what they read into it.

With respect, you are responsible for representing your own thoughts. If your representation includes an inescapable logic, that is not the reader's fault.

I've said (repeatedly) simply that IMO the success of 5E is not due primarily to its design, most of which elements are built on prior editions, but more so due to the investment by WotC in marketing, influencers

Yes, I understand you assert this.

Mind you, as a point of logic, this is not subject to our opinions. It is true, or it is not. The reality is not influenced by the feelings we use when knowledge is not available.

...wider spread acceptance of gaming and RPGs in general (born mostly from the evolution of the video game industry),

This cannot be material to the argument. If RPGs in general are more widely accepted, that applies to all RPGs, not specifically D&D. It does not distinguish D&D separate from other games, or apply more to D&D than other games. It is a rising tide that lifts all boats, not D&D specifically.

and other factors such as the availablity of gaming materials, etc.

Eh, that's weak. There is no real availability bottleneck. Amazon, Kickstarter and crowdfunding, online ordering, the internet, the rise of electronic formats - these are great equalizers of availability. I can go to DriveThruRPG and get surely hundreds, probably thousands of games.

Even before those, back in the age of 2e, White Wolf Games' World of Darkness line paid credible challenge to the supremacy of D&D. Making materials available enough was possible three decades ago, it surely is possible now.
 


The Cheesecake Factory analogy is likely a good one here.



The inverse position is hard in the short term, sure. Short term popularity can be a fad independent of quality. However... 50 years? At this point, handed down through several generations. So, it is more than "success" or "popularity" when you add in "longevity".

McDonalds was first founded in 1940. Does its continual existence say anything about its excellence, or its consistency and footprint?

Yeah, but when peeled down, measures of quality that are not connected to actual use are self-indulgent theorizing on the part of the critic.

Measure of quality that are based on popularity are, however, conflating too many elements to tell you anything but to tell you're they're popular. I don't think most people would find that a particularly useful metric for it, and really don't in any other area of endeavor, so I don't think RPGs get a pass here.

By all means, lay out the quality criteria that are not connected to success, popularity, or use, but are also not basically personal opinion.

We'll wait...

If D&D is a success entirely on excellence of design, then similar games would be doing as well or better than other styles of games with different design but the same level of footprint, right? If so, feel free to point at an example. Other D&D adjacents sometimes do okay, but they're not exactly beating other comparable competitors. Why would that be?

Because that's the only way you can do that; peel off the game's other advantages, and still show its preferred. And the best examples you can find on that don't seem to do so.
 

That was preaching to the choir however; modern social media presence of D&D reaches well beyond extent players.

This. I don't really regard forums as social media. By default it's a small number of hard core players.

Even if you pull the "technically forums are social media" there's a huge difference in the magnitude of scale.

The speed of that change as well. 2005 not much, 2015 very different. Hell 2014 vs 2024.
 

Overlapping reasons for D&D success.

1. Design.
2. Social media reception
3. Price (cheap Amazon deals)
4. Availability (Amazon, online stores in general)
5. Network effect
6. Playerbase
7. Ex players returning to the fold.
8. Cultural presence

Probably more. Social media presence/reception would be a big one along with design (which lead to positive social media reception).

If people didn't like it nothing else really matters.
 

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