D&D (2024) Do players really want balance?

[Zardnaar]

I don't think the outcomes are subjective at all.

Some are beyond dispute - eg that millions of people died, and that the German and Austro-Hungarian and Turkish empires all came to an end.

Some are disputed but in my view nevertheless are clear - eg that the modern state, that assumes authority over basically all aspects of economic and social life, came into being.

And in any event the post that you replied to was about the causes of the First World War. These are disputed among scholars; there is no metric that will identify them for us; yet no thinks that the First World War was an un-caused event.

I'm talking about the causes of the First World War.

And the relevance is this: you (and some other posters) assert that everything that cannot be measured is subjective. I've given a counter-example - the causes of the First World War cannot be determined by measurement; yet this event really happened, and so really had some or other cause(s), even though what that might be is subject to reasoned disagreement.

I was referring to who won, border changes etc. For us it's a done deal/ancient history not so much for others. How right or wrong those views are depends on the situation etc. Alot is justifications, BS etc.

 

[Hussar]

I have to say @pemerton, you are tangenting rather wildly here. Objective causes to the First World War are not really the same as claiming there are objective criteria for judging the quality of a product while ignoring the objective fact of the popularity of that product.

 

[Lanefan]

I don't agree that every alternative comparison beyond sales is subjective - at least, if "subjective" means not amenable to reason or analysis.

Just to give a simple example: the change to how to hit number and armour class are calculate in D&D, that was inaugurated with 3E, seems to me to be a straightforward improvement. It eliminates weird stuff like a +1 ring or +1 armour operating by way of subtraction to a number.

Establishing a uniform progression table for all PCs is also an improvement: it means that rules that refer to levels or HD operate the same for all PCs, and opens the door to more rules that treat level or HD as an input. Whereas in AD&D and B/X, these rules operate weirdly, because of differences from character to character as to what a level actually means (and that's before we get to multi-classsing).

You say this as an example of an objective comparison and yet saying it's "an improvement" is still subjective; in that not every would necessarily agree with that viewpoint.

That it's a change is indisputable. That it's an improvement is a very open question, in that while it allows rules that reference levels or HD to operate the same for all* it also removes variable progression from the list of available balancing mechanisms between classes.

* - which they already did anyway; what varied were rules that cross-referenced xp numbers with levels e.g. gaining 50,000 xp from a Deck card meant more to some classes than others in terms of level advancement.

 

[Voadam]

Yup 2E it had some uses and optional rules to make it fun.

One we use succeeds about 55% of the time on trained stuff ramping up 5% per level. While ramping up at same speed. Minor tweaks on combat and magic items tends to make it good

I thought 2e thief skill changes made for a better thief class than the 1e and basic ones but I still did not consider it a particularly good class compared to the other 2e classes.

 

[Zardnaar]

You say this as an example of an objective comparison and yet saying it's "an improvement" is still subjective; in that not every would necessarily agree with that viewpoint.

That it's a change is indisputable. That it's an improvement is a very open question, in that while it allows rules that reference levels or HD to operate the same for all* it also removes variable progression from the list of available balancing mechanisms between classes.

* - which they already did anyway; what varied were rules that cross-referenced xp numbers with levels e.g. gaining 50,000 xp from a Deck card meant more to some classes than others in terms of level advancement.

That example is purely subjective.

It's also only vaguely objective (if you buy into its subjective premise) if each class is roughly on par with each other. None of the modern editions have actually achieved that.

I've been playing C&C side by side. The changes they made to the rogue vs pre 3E are great. Their ranger and fighter need work imho. The difference xp rates aren't a big problem.

 

[Zardnaar]

I thought 2e thief skill changes made for a better thief class than the 1e and basic ones but I still did not consider it a particularly good class compared to the other 2e classes.

Kinda depends on other optional rules. I ran a game where rogues got 2 xp per gp.

Rogue hit level 9 around level 5 or 6 for everyone else.

I'm seeing the C&C rogue do a lot better (it's buffed over say 1E) and the player is getting very aggressive with backstabs vs sleeping and held opponents. She's also figuring out if she loots someting personally she gets all the xp.

So backstab is resolving once or twice a session and her trained skills at level 6 and 16 dex are +8 vs DC12.

Different xp rates are fine depending. Class design still key though.

 

[Voadam]

Kinda depends on other optional rules. I ran a game where rogues got 2 xp per gp.

Rogue hit level 9 around level 5 or 6 for everyone else.

I'm seeing the C&C rogue do a lot better (it's buffed over say 1E) and the player is getting very aggressive with backstabs vs sleeping and held opponents. She's also figuring out if she loots someting personally she gets all the xp.

So backstab is resolving once or twice a session and her trained skills at level 6 and 16 dex are +8 vs DC12.

Different xp rates are fine depending on class design still key though.

I think a 2e level 9 rogue bard would still probably be more attractive in general than a level 9 thief.

9d6 thief HD would be about 31 hp. A 6th level fighter would be 6d10 or about 33 hp. Thief THACO advanced one for three I think so they are three behind the fighter and stuck in leather armor. The thief would probably be great at two thief skills and good at two more though I would expect.

 

[Zardnaar]

I think a 2e level 9 rogue bard would still probably be more attractive in general than a level 9 thief.

9d6 thief HD would be about 31 hp. A 6th level fighter would be 6d10 or about 33 hp. Thief THACO advanced one for three I think so they are three behind the fighter and stuck in leather armor. The thief would probably be great at two thief skills and good at two more though I would expect.

Derp it was a thief.

We were using tbe thief's Handbook as well.

 

[pemerton]

Objective causes to the First World War are not really the same as claiming there are objective criteria for judging the quality of a product while ignoring the objective fact of the popularity of that product.

They're different phenomena, sure. But I think you can see the basic point: that not amenable to measurement doesn't entail is merely subjective.

You say this as an example of an objective comparison and yet saying it's "an improvement" is still subjective; in that not every would necessarily agree with that viewpoint.

There are many things that not everyone will necessarily agree with, including whether or not the earth is flat. That doesn't show that these things are merely subjective.

it also removes variable progression from the list of available balancing mechanisms between classes

This can be compensated by adjusting the distribution of class abilities. In AD&D this is especially easy, because thief abilities are granular to the percentage level, and the spells by level tables are also quite granular.

 

[Zardnaar]

They're different phenomena, sure. But I think you can see the basic point: that not amenable to measurement doesn't entail is merely subjective.

There are many things that not everyone will necessarily agree with, including whether or not the earth is flat. That doesn't show that these things are merely subjective.

This can be compensated by adjusting the distribution of class abilities. In AD&D this is especially easy, because thief abilities are granular to the percentage level, and the spells by level tables are also quite granular.

Earth is flat is a subjective opinion. That's its not is objective.

We perceive the sky is blue is also objective (unless you're colour blind I suppose). Some things are objective what you do with that information is subjective.