D&D (2024) I have the DMG. AMA!

[Emerikol]

The issue with power outages from a story perspective is you can never be wrong and not know it.

Take Claude Frolo from Hunchback. He thinks he's a worldy man of God, but he's not and that's where the character richness comes from. It'd be a whole different story if he started shooting blanks and knows god's upset with his actions.

In the case of clerics in D&D, I think they have a deep knowledge of the expectations of their Deity. I wouldn't nitpick minor infractions. That would be covered by an occasional general atonement. I would though warn a cleric as DM if they are about to go off the deep end with their character. If they do then they are taking that hit because it is worth it for roleplaying reasons.

And I'm not against varying that up. One example, I ran a campaign once where the Deity couldn't just give spells to anybody. There was training and mental discipline required to be able to accept high level spells. So in some situations a Deity might forego immediately taking away powers because the PC is part of the Deities plan and replacing him is not feasible. It did make the Deities more concerned at lower levels to be sure their clerics were faithful. You can't replace a 19th level cleric overnight.

What I am arguing for is the default should be what D&D has supported from day 1. Then the DMG should provide DMs with a whole variety of ways to change things up if they want.

 

[Neonchameleon]

So, real talk. If you had a player playing a cleric who decided to start violating their tenets, and the player explained that their character was having a crisis of faith and no longer believed in their deity, what would you do?

Let's take good and evil out of it. Let's say they were a cleric of LN god of justice, but the character decided his god's punishments were too harsh and instead chose to show criminals mercy. How would you handle that character arc in-game?

Talk to them. Ask how they wanted it to be handled. Suggest changing their subclass at some point to e.g. Life from whatever it was. Have NPCs wander in and challenge their character.

 

[Xenolith234]

I actually think that stuff was cool and wouldn't mind seeing it again. Made sense in a lot of ways to me.

Same here, at least everything except the bard. That one makes less sense to me.

 

[Micah Sweet]

Again, the 2024 DMG explicitly allows house rules, which would allow you to put that option right back in if you want. Done.

In order to do that you have to be aware of other ways, and 5.5 isn't suggesting any.

 

[Micah Sweet]

If it's one or the other, they aren't both 5e.

They certainly aren't both D&D 5e.

 

[TiQuinn]

In other words,, player entitlement. The rules trump the fiction.

Easily also turned around to be DM entitlement.

 

[Neonchameleon]

In the case of clerics in D&D, I think they have a deep knowledge of the expectations of their Deity. I wouldn't nitpick minor infractions. That would be covered by an occasional general atonement. I would though warn a cleric as DM if they are about to go off the deep end with their character. If they do then they are taking that hit because it is worth it for roleplaying reasons.

The hit is overwhelming is part of the problem. And just to reiterate something - why do you want D&D religion to not be like actual religion?

What I am arguing for is the default should be what D&D has supported from day 1. Then the DMG should provide DMs with a whole variety of ways to change things up if they want.

And I'm arguing that the current default is a massive improvement over the 1974 version. And leads to both better religion and better stories. Gygax got things wrong.

 

[tetrasodium]

You keep on bringing up Crawford, and I think that's your axe to grind. Not mine. I have other issues with Crawford, but they have no relevance here.

It's not axe grinding... you might have missed the videos. Crawford has on multiple occasions spoken about how cool and intended it is for warlock to ignore their patron but still keep getting power from it. The DMG channels that same vibe with these classes. His past statements on it are relevant because they tend to be in what are effectively marketing videos and get an even wider reach to players than the dmg.

I would challenge those who want to strip abilities to broaden their viewpoint to the other classes, even if that means redefining the abilities of those classes.

It's not about giving the other classes the same strings, thee three classes in question (cleric paladin & warlock) have strings the PCs can pull with massive in world NPC support in the form of churches cults recognition of divine investment from NPCs and fiendish power structures. No other classes with reason to embrace them or have their back. get anything even remotely close. Even classes like fighter and rogue who might be able to reach out to an army or thieves guild have plenty of reasons why they might not be trusted and embraced like those other three classes who get power from a generally intelligent & often somewhat free willed supernatural entity.

It breaks verisimilitude to not have those supernatural ties be recognized in logical ways, that recognition comes at a cost of being enforced by their power source and it makes no sense to give that recognition to the other classes.

 

[Neonchameleon]

It should be a change, not a consequence, is the point I want to make. A consequence is something you inflict because someone did something wrong. A mechanical consequence for leaving their god is punishing the player for trying to make the character interesting.

And this is why again and again I'm suggesting that 5e has a perfect mechanic: change the subclass.

 

[Micah Sweet]

"Hurray!" ~ cleric players who want to roleplay someone of faith and the struggle thereof instead of someone who needs to do exactly what the DM tells them to keep having their character be viable in the game.

If people want to do it, fine, I guess. But the game doesn't need to enable or encourage it.

I think the rule in 5.5 exists less to protect players who want to roleplay a PC struggling with their faith and more to protect players who want their PC to have a particular set of cool superpowers and are not willing to engage in any fiction that might take them away based on their behavior.