D&D (2024) I have the DMG. AMA!

[mamba]

Yeah, it's whatever the current version of D&D is. All of the editions of D&D are perfectly fine games that are still playable. But, no. What matters is that the latest version reflects what they want.

I mean, I do not have the feeling that it doesn’t matter to you either…

 

[mamba]

But you don't actually need classes to fulfill archetypes. Nor do classes need to enforce archetypes.

agreed, but in D&D you have them, not sure why you try to move this to general design principles when the discussion very firmly is about 5e

That didn't seem to be what you were arguing earlier.

I was not arguing for any other representation however, this still is a D&D thread. That it is possible to represent them in a non-D&D way is not all that relevant

Merlin came out aging backward. Harry Potter (granted he is post-D&D) started talking to snakes and deleting glass without training. Wizard babies aren't necessarily powerless, but uncontrolled and dangerous.

or just more talented, see Luke Skywalker, there are plenty of options, from angel (Gandalf), to some supernatural offspring (Merlin), to just more naturally gifted

It's relevant because you were framing classes ad necessary for some reason.

that is a misunderstanding then, clearly classless TTRPGs exist. D&D is not one of them however.

Regardless of the model used, a priest archetype will generally belong to some order however and follow the teachings of some god(s) and otherwise be integrated into the world, they do not just get their powers and then go off and do whatever the heck they want, free of any consequences or obligations. Similarly the Warlock archetype will have some pact with a supernatural being and obligations that stem from that

Your desire to just pick whatever powers and ignore any worldbuilding while doing so to me is very much a superheroes thing, they are all just individual mutants who ended up getting powers and not owing anything to anyone (there are exceptions too where your powers were granted by something in some form and you still have obligations too)

 

[Neonchameleon]

I think --and I'd love to have lamefan chime in on this as they're the one that put forth this idea to me in the first place-- it's more as part of the gambling aspect of older D&D.

You pays your money, you takes your chances. for gambling to be a thrill, you need a bunch of varied fail states. And all play being skilled play including RP, you are effectively gambling while roleplaying your character's actions and thus have to have a Whammie waiting for you in case you trigger the DM's trap card of not playing the way they think you should. because again, in certain older styles, you're playing the DM as much as the rest of the game.

The thing is that the gambling penalties in question are boring. I've no objection to gambling within RP (I'd argue as much gambling happens in the average Apocalypse World or Blades in the Dark session as the average D&D campaign). But Level Drain is the penalty equivalent of the +X weapon. Yes +X swords exist and do their job competently. And are treasure. But they aren't exciting treasure.

 

[Neonchameleon]

I mean, I cannot speak for anyone else, but it's not complicated for me.

God, Cleric.
Oath, Paladin.
Patron, Warlock.

If those classes betray their respective source of empowerment then they should lose that power.

I find the complete lack of this dynamic completely flawed from a game, and story, point of view.

I find this approach extremely flawed from a game and story point of view - and with no better a grasp of characterisation than George Lucas has. (Lucas was a visionary - but his characterisation was little better than his dialogue).

 

[TwoSix]

that is a misunderstanding then, clearly classless TTRPGs exist. D&D is not one of them however.

For the record, I've played classless D&D. Or at least, there was just 1 class, and it just got feats.

 

[Scribe]

I find this approach extremely flawed from a game and story point of view - and with no better a grasp of characterisation than George Lucas has. (Lucas was a visionary - but his characterisation was little better than his dialogue).

Thats cool, obviously I think you are wrong, and if I could have a successful story/trilogy to the degree of Star Wars, I'd laugh all the way to the bank, but if we all agreed there wouldnt be much action here eh?

 

[DinoInDisguise]

if we all agreed there wouldnt be much action here eh?

We could sing kumbaya, dance, and relish in the glory of our group think. Who doesn't want that?

 

[Maxperson]

Optional books aren't 5e rules?

Fine. You cannot be a human and get +1 to all ability scores and have the variant humans's skill and feat choice.

Sure they are. They are OPTIONAL rules, unlike the 5.5e core books which are DEFAULT rules. You're comparing apples(Xanathar's) and oranges(5.5e core books). That doesn't work.

You using the Xanathar's optional rules doesn't alter that with two different default sets of core rules, we have two different editions. Both cannot be 5e.

 

[Neonchameleon]

Thats cool, obviously I think you are wrong, and if I could have a successful story/trilogy to the degree of Star Wars, I'd laugh all the way to the bank, but if we all agreed there wouldnt be much action here eh?

If I had a story as flat as the original cut of Star Wars I wouldn't. Lucas put together an amazing team. But the Lucas of "Han shot first", "Sand. I hate Sand." And "The Death Star just hangs there in space doing nothing before the second trench run so the editors are going to splice in an alternate take of the Alderaan firing sequence to add tension" was fortunately not all we got. Great worldbuilder and team builder.

 

[Neonchameleon]

I mean, I hate tracking slots too, but the whole idea of half casters is marred by the fact that D&D was never all that good at making up for the other half and has actively gotten worse at doing so because it no longer knows how to grant non-magical abilities.

On the other hand warlock invocations are great in many cases. WotC may have fallen from their 4e high of granting useful non-magical abilities - but is vastly better than anything pre-4e.