D&D (2024) Should full casters and Monks have one weapon mastery?

But the other classes have some classes that focus onto the themes directly.

One of the bard's themes is they can learn a bit of anything. It's the jack of all trades concept where they can learn several things reasonably well but don't master any of them. We can see this in their skills, spells, and subclasses.

If we compare the bard to the rogue the rogue is obviously better at skill checks. The rogue has one more proficient skill, gains expertise faster, and has reliable talent. Bards are good at skills but rogues are better. Rogues also have better combat abilities.

If we compare bards to any martial oriented class then bards fall very short. Poor weapons, poor armor, no combat benefits. Bards can use a subclass to gain more martial prowess. They'll still never soak up damage like a fighter or barbarian and consistent damage is limited by spells. They can have a martial option but they aren't the best at it. This is also a reason I wouldn't give the, free weapon mastery. Bards don't need that boost to be better at it when they're not meant to be.

Bards improve combat through bardic inspiration instead and use skills and combat inspiration as an alternative to things like channel divinity or wild shape and the better armor options of their fellow support casters in the cleric and druid. One of the reasons for bards to be strong spellcasters is as a viable alternative to clerics and druids.

If we compare bards to other spellcasters at spellcasting bards still fall short. Clerics and druids have a lot of bonus spells prepared , access to their full lists with a rest, and magical benefits in channel divinity, blessed strikes, and divine intervention; or wild shape and elemental fury. Divine order or primal order give better armor and weapons to the base class or skill benefits and more cantrips than bards. Wizards have arcane recovery, ritual adept, a much better spell prep mechanic, and memorize spell to be obviously better than bards trying to be wizards. Sorcerers have innate sorcerer, font of magic, and metamagic to be obviously better than bards as spellcasters.

Warlocks gains spells just as fast, also have a lot of bonus spells, and a lot of at-will power in the invocations. Bards could have done something similar but would need a lot more development of the bard songs as an alternative to invocations. I see that as pointless if the songs do what spells would do anyway, but if someone wants to use mystic arcanum style magical secrets, songs instead of invocations, and bardic magic instead of pact magic it could work in their house rules. What I don't like is trying to tell everyone that's the only way bards should be designed. ;-)

Bards are still in the 3.5 mode where almost everything they can do is done better by another class. Now they're designed well enough they're still worth playing because they're more similar to druids and clerics.

Thematically, bards are powerful magicians who rely on wit and skill as well as magic. They support and inspire the party.

The powerful magic part is thematic differently through spell selection. Spell preparation is still a huge limiting factor on bards. The bard spell list already consists of many cleric, druid, and wizard spells. A bard who takes a lot of shared spells from one of those lists is already leaning into one of those styles at 10th level. A bard who tries to split them up is already dabbling in each.

The broad access is always there. Magical secrets is less like adding more, and more like removing restrictions to the full lists. Which is then handled exactly the same way where the spell preparation mechanic is a limiting factor, the bard is either dabbling or focusing on a spell list to match the spell style of the bard, and the bard is failing to be as good a spellcaster as a cleric, druid, sorcerer, or wizard.

Bards currently excel at taking a theme that hasn't been supported yet or by being a bootleg version of a theme that is already supported and another subclass and throwing in a few spells outside of the theme.

We can create our own concept of the theme. Bards are a very customizable class. I like that. They start as an inspiring
skilled magician and we build from there based on our character concept.
But back on topic no wiz and clerics should not get weapon masteries by default.

Of course not.

But a 10th level fighter or barbarian should get super topple and just knock people down if they hit and speed up the game due to no saving throw being made at all. Or cause previous wounds if they hit with a gradmastered weapon.

I'm on board with grandmaster features accessed by barbarians and fighters.
 

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I’m not clear on the purpose of this thread. The OP asks for advice, but then vigorously rejects the overwhelming consensus. So what are we really debating here?

Consensus: full casters and monks should not get weapon mastery, especially the former. Take it or leave it, but why keep arguing that everyone is wrong? It makes it feel like the thread was started in bad faith.
 

No he isn't. He is practising with his staff that he is proficient in .... and why can the Paladin do all that when he is praying or whatever the heck he spends his time doing? Why can the Eldritch Knight when he too is learning the same spells I am (albeit at a slower rate).
Because the Eldritch knight is learning both at a slower rate?
He's slower because he has to spread his time between Spell mastery and weapon mastery.

What you are proposing is a character who invest in full Spell Mastery but gets a free weapon mastery anyway.
 

IMO. It’s a single level dip into fighter for weapon masteries. If caster wants them then giving up a level of caster goodness seems to be a fair trade. IMO. This feels more to be about having cake and eating it to than opening up new character options.
I fully agree

I noted that one of the gishes build in 5.5 (the bladelock) is a total glass cannon. It doesn't really "work" if you go single class, it's just too fragile.

But if you take a single dip in fighter, you solve so many problems. Your armor class is now decent, and you have a self heal. Your swordfighting is also improved by the fighting style and the weapon mastery. Con saves. Etc etc.

At first, this bothered me. You get all that for a single level dip? You "have" to do it for your bladelock gish to work? boooo!

But now... I kind of like it. A single level dip for a caster is not insignificant. It means that 50% of the time, you are a full spell level behind a single class caster. It's a real penalty! And if you really want to be a great gish... isn't it balanced that you would have to make such a compromise?

Edit: I also like the "PC creation story" it creates. Level 1 you're a fighter. Level 2, you find this mysterious magic sword....
 

You've seen one in play then?

Because the math I've seen shows they're good now but certainly not OP.

And the little bit I've seen played (low level, through lvl 3 so far) doesn't show OP at all yet.
I'm going by what people like @Clint_L and others have posted about them here and on other boards. And reading the class in the book makes it pretty clear IMO.

Still don't think they should get weapon masteries.
Agree completely!

I have seen one in play through level 7. They have not been OP in our game. The player playing a Monk usually plays a full caster and he feels the Monk is weaker than a full caster would be (and I generally agree). He did get the mastery feat FWIW.
Given your POV it seems like anyone NOT playing a full caster would feel any class inferior to fullcasters? 🤷‍♂️

It makes it feel like the thread was started in bad faith.
I don't think it was started in bad faith. I think the OP was hoping the concensus would go more their direction and is surprised it hasn't. I know I've had threads like that that I've started. At some point, you just accept your view is quite as universal as you thought it was and move on.
 

I'm going by what people like @Clint_L and others have posted about them here and on other boards. And reading the class in the book makes it pretty clear IMO.

From what I've seen those weren't play reports just impressions.

When 3e came out there were MASS outcries about how OP the monk class was. They were very, very wrong.

And looking at the class, the dependence on one central resource (called focus points, now) has been lessened, but not eliminated. Their ability to do cool things is limited enough to likely be far from OP.

And when you have full casters setting the curve, it will be pretty hard for the monk to MEET it, much less overshoot it!

But we'll see how things play out.
 

From what I've seen those weren't play reports just impressions.

When 3e came out there were MASS outcries about how OP the monk class was. They were very, very wrong.

And looking at the class, the dependence on one central resource (called focus points, now) has been lessened, but not eliminated. Their ability to do cool things is limited enough to likely be far from OP.

And when you have full casters setting the curve, it will be pretty hard for the monk to MEET it, much less overshoot it!

But we'll see how things play out.
Monks finally have their niche. They are very good at locking down single enemies and not get killed by the attempt. Reducing damage with a reaction is nice.
 


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