D&D 5E (2024) Greyhawk 2024: comparing Oerth and Earth

[Parmandur]

Also, any Norse origin requires Sámi and Finn as well, which Thillonria lacks.

Because they are not 1-to-1...

 

[Parmandur]

This has nothing to do with Greyhawk. The Greyhawk cultures have only the thinnest veneer of historical inspiration. Your attempt to map real world cultures to Greyhawk cultures is fraught with inferences that aren't there. Gygax never put as much thought into the setting.

And it isn't like WotC is moving it more that direction at all...quite the contrary.

 

[Yaarel]

Because they are not 1-to-1...

No. It is because Gygax is working with a delusional N*zi ideology supposing an Ur-Germanic "race" (Suel), which incorrectly appropriates Norse heritage, while ignoring Sámi and Finn.

Gygaxs dad is an immigrant from Switzerland. It appears Gygax grew up with these kinds of notions from German scholars of the early 1900s.

 

[Parmandur]

No. It is because Gygax is working with a delusional N*zi ideology supposing an Ur-Germanic "race" (Suel), which incorrectly appropriates Norse heritage, while ignoring Sámi and Finn.

Gygaxs dad is an immigrant from Switzerland. It appears Gygax grew up with these kinds of notions from German scholars of the early 1900s.

Yeah, he had somewhat outdated views for his time. But fhe Suel are not "Germanic", a couple of Suel-derived nations have longships and go raiding. There is no implications of the Suel being "Germanic" as a whole, let alone Norwegian.

 

[Parmandur]

Gygaxs dad is an immigrant from Switzerland. It appears Gygax grew up with these kinds of notions from German scholars of the early 1900s.

Incidentally, as a Swiss-American myself, I find this immediate connotation fairly offensive, ironically.

 

[Yaarel]

Incidentally, as a Swiss-American myself, I find this immediate connotation fairly offensive, ironically.

Well, the world today is different from the world of the N*zi empire.

 

[Parmandur]

Well, the world today is different from the world of the N*zi empire.

Heh, I think of Germany today as clean-cut hippies, and admire both.

I mean, Ernest Gygax, Sr. was a Swiss-American from Berne, not even a German, let alone a Nazi.

 

[Yaarel]

I mean, Ernest Gygax, Sr. was a Swiss-American from Berne, not even a German, let alone a Nazi.

Correct. I assume Gygaxs dad immigrated before the N*zis took Germany.

I am referring to the scholars under the influence of "Darwinian" perspectives and the excitement about the linguistic breakthrus, whence the (false) supposition of human "races" − and of an "Ur-Germanic" "race".

 

[haakon1]

Yes, the 1980 and 1983 Greyhawk setting by Gygax presents the clearly Norwegian "vikings" of Thillonria as brutish stupid "barbarians" who exemplify the despicable Evil Suel empire …

The 2024 Greyhawk walks back some of this. The Thillonrians are still plainly Norwegian …

2024 Greyhawk seems to have taken the sting out of the Anti-Norwegian characterizations, and seems mostly workable from a Norwegian perspective. But the D&D fans of Greyhawk since old school and 3e are still in the process of understanding and integrating this 2024 recharacterization. We will see if the hatespeech against Norwegian heritage ends or not.

Not sure if serious …

As a partially Norwegian American … oh, look at the user name … hey, yo, same name as the King of Norway! … I never saw the Barbarians of the Thillonrian Peninsula as specifically Norwegians. Generic fantasy Vikings, but I never “ooh, the Frost are specifically Danes because they are furthest south” or anything like that.

I agree with others that Greyhawk societies are fantasy societies, not copies of specific real ones - pastiches and blends, in some cases.

As a Greyhawk fan, I thought the lore of the Suloise Imperium was they were led by great magic users. And the earliest lore of Barbarians in the original Unearthed Arcana was Barbarians don’t like mages? The Thillonrians don’t seem to be ruled by mages.

Saying they are exemplars of the Suel Empire is like saying Sri Lanka is an exemplar of British monarchy - sure, they both drink tea and play cricket, both islands, and the history is there, but there are some significant differences.

In my mind, the Scarlet Brotherhood are “Nazi-like”, but the Thillonrians are no.

 

[Parmandur]

Correct. I assume Gygaxs dad immigrated before the N*zis took Germany.

I am referring to the scholars under the influence of "Darwinian" perspectives and the excitement about the linguistic breakthrus, whence the (false) supposition of human "races" − and of an "Ur-Germanic" "race".

The Nazis never took over Switzerland.

And yes, Gygax was influenced by outmoded anthropology that he had read. Obviously. But he was not equating the Suel at large with Germans.