D&D General The Human Side of D&D History - From Gary Gygax to Temple of Elemental Evil

[Umbran]

But I’m certainly not going to condemn the fact for that. Hiding the facts because making them known might hurt the subject of the fact is very often the root of the most evil stuff in history.

One cannot swing, "But it is TEH TRVTH!!!1!" around willy-nilly, and not expect blowback for the harm their poorly-considered approaches to discussion incur.

Apply some thoughtful empathy. That's all that is required.

 

[Hussar]

One cannot swing, "But it is TEH TRVTH!!!1!" around willy-nilly, and not expect blowback for the harm their poorly-considered approaches to discussion incur.

Apply some thoughtful empathy. That's all that is required.

We are not talking about the same thing though. You are suggesting that we show empathy. Fine. I get that. I agree. But, again, this has nothing to do with the idea that the facts themselves are somehow responsible for attacks. Sure, time and place of course. But, the suggestion that started this conversation was that we should bury facts or otherwise massage the truth because facts might be an attack on someone.

That sort of thinking has done far, far more harm than someone dropping facts into a conversation ever will.

 

[tetrasodium]

I am -so- sick and tired of the human side of this. Of people trying, over and over, to whitewash things and make it shiny and clean without the bumps and warts along the way.

We need the dwarven side of things. Goblin. Tiefling. ANYTHING but the human side, damn it!

People are pushing back because they disagree with comments like"Those people don't matter" and feel that they dvery much do matter. In some ways this whole thing blowing up fiat second time even dials in the focus on things like that the clown to one that is looking less like a maybe light hearted a jab at an old d&d term) mechanic & more like a mean spirited effort to say "those people don't matter".

 

[Steampunkette]

People are pushing back because they disagree with comments like"Those people don't matter" and feel that they dvery much do matter. In some ways this whole thing blowing up fiat second time even dials in the focus on things like that the clown to one that is looking less like a maybe light hearted a jab at an old d&d term) mechanic & more like a mean spirited effort to say "those people don't matter".

To make my position clear 'cause I'm not certain I understand yours:

Gary Gygax was a sexist. And encouraged sexism. He spread it in his professional and in his personal life. I don't like this about him. I especially don't like that he apparently swaddled his son in enough bigotry to slip up and say nasty things about trans people then try to pretend he didn't say it or that it is irrelevant that he said it after the fact. That he'd feel comfortable enough to work with a literal Nazi who spreads their propaganda online so long as he "Bellies up to the table" thus creating a space for Nazis that is unwelcoming for everyone else.

He created Chainmail, and worked with others to make D&D. I'll always be grateful for that.

But he definitely doesn't need "Humanizing". Dude was very human, in all the best and the worst ways. And "Pushing back" on even acknowledging he was human in the bad ways, too, does no one any service.

So gimme the goblin perspective. The orc perspective. Lemme see him with warts and all. Y'know?

 

[Umbran]

We are not talking about the same thing though. You are suggesting that we show empathy. Fine. I get that. I agree. But, again, this has nothing to do with the idea that the facts themselves are somehow responsible for attacks.

You generally can't use facts and logic to argue someone out of a position that they didn't come by via facts and logic.

The idea that facts are responsible for attacks doesn't come from facts and logic. It is an emotional position - probably come to because folks have been using facts and logic to attack things close to their hearts and identities.

So, you'd need a significantly different approach to deal with the situation.

 

[Bedrockgames]

People are pushing back because they disagree with comments like"Those people don't matter" and feel that they dvery much do matter. In some ways this whole thing blowing up fiat second time even dials in the focus on things like that the clown to one that is looking less like a maybe light hearted a jab at an old d&d term) mechanic & more like a mean spirited effort to say "those people don't matter".

That and the foreword actually rehashes things that have been hotly debated in places like EnWorld and elsewhere. It brings up a host of issues around the problematic content debate and I think people still have very different attitudes about how that kind of thing ought to be handled, how much of it is a problem and if any of it needs a disclaimer

 

[tetrasodium]

To make my position clear 'cause I'm not certain I understand yours:

It's a derisive quote about grognards from Jason Tondro. That quote shows thaco the clown as a very recently published mean spirited effort to exclude and drive away "those people" by today's standards.

..

Gary Gygax was a sexist. And encouraged sexism. He spread it in his professional and in his personal life. I don't like this about him. I especially don't like that he apparently swaddled his son in enough bigotry to slip up and say nasty things about trans people then try to pretend he didn't say it or that it is irrelevant that he said it after the fact. That he'd feel comfortable enough to work with a literal Nazi who spreads their propaganda online so long as he "Bellies up to the table" thus creating a space for Nazis that is unwelcoming for everyone else.

He created Chainmail, and worked with others to make D&D. I'll always be grateful for that.

But he definitely doesn't need "Humanizing". Dude was very human, in all the best and the worst ways. And "Pushing back" on even acknowledging he was human in the bad ways, too, does no one any service.

So gimme the goblin perspective. The orc perspective. Lemme see him with warts and all. Y'know?

Women were allowed to open credit cards in their own names in 1974 after the Equal Credit Opportunity Act (ECOA) was passed. The standards for "sexist" in the 70s were not the same as today, but it sure is easy to paint that picture otherwise with a few out of context partial quotes alongside a couple paragraphs of warning so you can write at length about gygax as if he was like you just did up there. I'm going to use an example that is far better than the rice strain one that was raised earlier in the thread to show why all of these efforts are wildly out of line.

On top of being misleading at best, none of what you are bringing up is any more relevant to spotlight in a book in the history of d&d or it's marketing than it would be to include a section about the contents∆ of the museum in Harbin China in a medical text book covering the treatment of frost bite and other medical procedures pioneered there. Of course if the goal is to give folks a solid platform to write the kind of smears that you just did then it makes total sense.

∆ they are horrific war crimes and some would even say that the museum in question presents them in a way that somehow even manages to make it seem worse.

 

[mamba]

The standards for "sexist" in the 70s were not the same as today

he was sexist by 70s standards too, he got called out for it in the 70s

 

[Umbran]

It's a derisive quote about grognards from Jason Tondro. That quote shows thaco the clown as a very recently published mean spirited effort to exclude and drive away "those people" by today's standards.

So, the problem with looking at that one item is that it occurred in a context in which "those people" and "those other people" have been wrangling over change for decades, and, in fact, trying to drive each other away.

Pulling out one, and saying, "Here, they were mean spirited" makes it sound like only one side is a victim, and that's simply not the case.

 

[Divine2021]

I wrote something today after watching Tim Cain's (Fallout, Troika) recent video about Temple of Elemental Evil being left out of Art & Arcana. Between that and our ongoing discussions about Gary's legacy, and given a lot of the discussions online and on EN World, I've been thinking a lot about how we remember the actual people who built this hobby.

The Human Side of D&D History: Reflecting on How We Remember Our Creators

Quick TLDR highlights:

• Tim's story about literally cutting up his personal ToEE module to share with his dev team
• How Gary was less "internet celebrity" and more "D&D fan's pen pal" in the early days
• The contrast between creators as real people vs. internet talking points
• Why veteran gamers might be defensive of Gary (hint: we actually met him!)
• The irony of defending creators against AI while reducing them to memes

Not trying to start another flame war about Gary or WotC - just hoping we can talk about the human side of our hobby's history. Some of you oldtimers probably have great convention stories about meeting these folks - would love to hear them.

What do you think? How do we balance honest criticism while remembering these are real people who helped build our hobby?

Hey, just a quick note of thanks. I read your blog post, and I was taken by the grace and thoughtful reflection with which it was written. I appreciate it.