D&D General The Human Side of D&D History - From Gary Gygax to Temple of Elemental Evil

[OptionalRule]

I always have the same question to people whenever these topics come up.

Do you really think anyone is going to thank you? Forty years from now when people are looking back, do you honestly believe that anyone will say, “hey thank you for protecting Gygax from this. “?

I think people posting with the hopes that they'll be seen any way by anyone is one of the root cause problems of toxic discourse online. It's not about whatever they're comnmenting on, it's about them and what kind of online image they are trying to craft. All these assertions are just tools to make that happen.

 

[Bedrockgames]

I think people posting with the hopes that they'll be seen any way by anyone is one of the root cause problems of toxic discourse online. It's not about whatever they're comnmenting on, it's about them and what kind of online image they are trying to craft. All these assertions are just tools to make that happen.

People are probably just voicing their opinions. Maybe hoping to persuade people

 

[tetrasodium]

he was sexist by 70s standards too, he got called out for it in the 70s

Going to link this here because it nicely addresses this claim & you don't seem to have made any effort to support that bolded bit

So, the problem with looking at that one item is that it occurred in a context in which "those people" and "those other people" have been wrangling over change for decades, and, in fact, trying to drive each other away.

Pulling out one, and saying, "Here, they were mean spirited" makes it sound like only one side is a victim, and that's simply not the case.

Maybe... but we are also talking about a nostalgia bait history of d&d book rather than an a modern adventure or splatbook that would make relevant those disagreements that you reference. I don't disagree about what you wrote being a potentially reasonable take on some level, but the recent quote shows just how easy it is to grab something like Gygax's sarcastic response or Jason Tondro's exasperated comment then use it out of context to wield something entirely unrelated like thaco the clown or "fighting men" with newly transplanted motive as a club against their respective authors.

Why is it that the chain of back & forth should be applied further to thaco the clown or any other example of that more recent "wrangling" than gets applied to the response gygax wrote?

 

[mamba]

Going to link this here because it nicely addresses this claim

yeah, does not matter, that was his response to being called out for his sexist bits in D&D. So as I wrote, he was being called out in the 70s for it already, his response cannot be what caused it, that is not how time works…

As to whether it was sarcastic, I’d say it may have been an exaggeration, but there is a kernel of truth there. If this were all there is you may have had a point, but it isn’t. He remained stubbornly sexist for all of his life

Finally, if I repeatedly get called out for something I do not think I am and do not wish to be, I’d try to work on what is being pointed out to be even less so / more clearly not it, rather than go out of my way to point of that, yes I proudly am and can be much worse too… so I call BS on the ‘I really am not, this is all sarcasm’ excuse. The ‘damn right I am and do not care for equal pay’ rings very true, the ‘I might even do…’ part might be an exaggeration

 

[Steampunkette]

Even his own daughter acknowledged he was a sexist, even if she wouldn't consider him a misogynist.

There is no service done by trying to muddy the waters of his sexism.

He was called out by people his own age in his own time. He was called out by people older and younger than him. And his response was to double down and keep saying and doing sexist stuff.

All the way to 2004 on this forum, and 2005 on RPG.net.

He never learned or changed his ways. And he absolutely had every opportunity.

 

[Maxperson]

he was sexist by 70s standards too, he got called out for it in the 70s

Sure, but he wasn't nearly as sexist as many, many others. Countless are the tales of bosses demanding sexual favors to get/keep jobs, grabbing rears, fondling women, leering, harassing women verbally in the workplace, and more. Gary's comments, even the one doubling down against women's lib, don't rise anywhere close to those commonplace occurrences in 1970s workplaces.

From what was said in the quotes by the woman(can't remember her name) that worked for TSR, TSR wasn't like that. She found it fun to watch for the women in bikinis and call out when one walked by. At least until her three favorite coworkers left. She says that right after she was hired D&D exploded and Gary couldn't find the time to mentor her, not that she was hired to be a secretary and/or eye candy. If TSR(Gary) had been as bad as a whole lot of other businesses, she would be telling a very different tale.

Treating him like he was somehow among the worst of the worst of the 70s sexists doesn't accomplish justice. Without the understanding that comes with seeing the environment he came from and lived in, and understanding his human side, you can't really temper your judgement of his sexist behavior to the appropriate level.

If all you want to see is the sexist side of things, you are going to overreact and get pushback from the people who are looking at everything. Refusing to look at the human side or environment that Gygax came from is also going to pull the pendulum too far towards your side of things, and when it swings back, and it will swing back, it will swing back too far away from where it should be(and what you want), because that's how pendulums work. The farther towards the extreme end you pull it, the farther towards the other extreme it goes when it swings back.

Moderation, and that doesn't mean ignoring the sexism, but rather understanding everything and giving the appropriate response, keeps the pendulum closer to the middle so it doesn't swing as far or possibly at all.

 

[mamba]

Treating him like he was somehow among the worst of the worst of the 70s sexists doesn't accomplish justice.

no one is doing that, all I did was push back against denying he was sexist at all

If all you want to see is the sexist side of things, you are going to overreact and get pushback from the people who are looking at everything.

nah, I get pushback from people that keep denying he was sexist at all ("snap and respond with sarcasm"...)

 

[Maxperson]

no one is doing that, all I did was push back against denying he was sexist at all

I got hell from folks in the other thread for saying that he wasn't as bad as many/most sexists of that era, and that despite women's lib starting to take off, he was in fact a product of his time(which was a very sexist time). They didn't want to hear that he wasn't among the worst.

nah, I get pushback from people that keep denying he was sexist at all ("snap and respond with sarcasm"...)

There will be some, just like there were some who pushed back against me for saying he wasn't among the worst and that the 70s was still a very sexist time period.

I do find it interesting, though, that of that entire post, those were the two small portions you decided to respond to.

 

[lynnfredricks]

Sure, but he wasn't nearly as sexist as many, many others. Countless are the tales of bosses demanding sexual favors to get/keep jobs, grabbing rears, fondling women, leering, harassing women verbally in the workplace, and more. Gary's comments, even the one doubling down against women's lib, don't rise anywhere close to those commonplace occurrences in 1970s workplaces.

From what was said in the quotes by the woman(can't remember her name) that worked for TSR, TSR wasn't like that. She found it fun to watch for the women in bikinis and call out when one walked by. At least until her three favorite coworkers left. She says that right after she was hired D&D exploded and Gary couldn't find the time to mentor her, not that she was hired to be a secretary and/or eye candy. If TSR(Gary) had been as bad as a whole lot of other businesses, she would be telling a very different tale.

Treating him like he was somehow among the worst of the worst of the 70s sexists doesn't accomplish justice. Without the understanding that comes with seeing the environment he came from and lived in, and understanding his human side, you can't really temper your judgement of his sexist behavior to the appropriate level.

Nothing I have seen that he's said strikes me as being among the worst or uncommonly bad.

Accusations of sexism in the 70s was quite common as there was an explosion of interest in equality in the workplace. If you get called out enough, it is also the nature of middle aged men to snap back with sarcasm.

I won't condemn the guy for having a few common, human flaws at the time.

 

[tetrasodium]

yeah, does not matter, that was his response to being called out for his sexist bits in D&D. So as I wrote, he was being called out in the 70s for it already, his response cannot be what caused it, that is not how time works…

As to whether it was sarcastic, I’d say it may have been an exaggeration, but there is a kernel of truth there. If this were all there is you may have had a point, but it isn’t. He remained stubbornly sexist for all of his life

Finally, if I repeatedly get called out for something I do not think I am and do not wish to be, I’d try to work on what is being pointed out to be even less so / more clearly not it, rather than go out of my way to point of that, yes I proudly am and can be much worse too… so I call BS on the ‘I really am not, this is all sarcasm’ excuse. The ‘damn right I am and do not care for equal pay’ rings very true, the ‘I might even do…’ part might be an exaggeration

We can't have a discussion based on "well assume the criticism he was responding to was valid reasonable & a thing you agree with" if you can't provide it or even point to specific things you feel were sexist. I wrote the words "you don't seem to have made any effort to support that bolded bit" while embedding elven maid inn's great tweet on the topic because you made no effort to actually support your claim about Gygax being sexist with any examples that could be discussed. How can you possibly expect anyone to even rise to the level of simply being capable of engaging in this discussion with you if they need to guess what specific elements that you are claiming was sexist by the standards of the time in the 70's?

Even his own daughter acknowledged he was a sexist, even if she wouldn't consider him a misogynist.

There is no service done by trying to muddy the waters of his sexism.

He was called out by people his own age in his own time. He was called out by people older and younger than him. And his response was to double down and keep saying and doing sexist stuff.

All the way to 2004 on this forum, and 2005 on RPG.net.

He never learned or changed his ways. And he absolutely had every opportunity.

Spoiler: What she actually wrote was this

"This is sexist and doesn't hold up to our more enlightened standards today “ is hardly the slam dunk you are making it out to be, not does it say anything that would extend to early d&d with so much force that it needs a couple paragraphs of warning in a history book.

All of this comic code style extreme standard for inclusivity review uses claims like those being made about gygax & early d&d stuff to support a blowtorch to that old stuff as well.... Can't have old Thay where more advanced but slower breeding elf & dwarf ☆ civilizations eventually succumbed to the less advanced but faster breeding humans through sheer attrition because it included slavery... just change that whole thing to necromancy & undead, totally the same thing right? Can't even have rules to support have old style dark sun because the world itself is a horrible place with a collapsed civilization barely hanging on with horrors like slavery and desperation for food/water in an environment actively hostile to the continued survival of those living there... totally the same when the rules leave PCs as what effectively amounts to kryptonians visiting scenic athas. Any grognards who were around or liked that old stuff? "Those people are not worth listening to"

☆Tolkein set that standard decades before d&d