D&D General The Human Side of D&D History - From Gary Gygax to Temple of Elemental Evil

[Reef]

It makes no difference if what he wrote was sexist or not by the standards of his time. What matters, is that what he wrote was sexist by the standards of our time. And that is literally all the foreward is saying.

 

[Steampunkette]

Yeah, no. Sorry. I'm not gonna re-litigate this for your exclusive benefit.

Gygax was a sexist. There's a ton of evidence for it lying around. If you're unwilling to go looking for it that's on you. It's been provided enough on these boards across so many threads that it's common knowledge.

Between his treatment of female gamers at his tables, the work he produced, how he conducted himself both publicly and in private, how he talked about women in the last years of his life, and the fact that 85% of the US at the time supported women more than he did in his little ranty letter?

I'm done dealing with it.

 

[tetrasodium]

It makes no difference if what he wrote was sexist or not by the standards of his time. What matters, is that what he wrote was sexist by the standards of our time. And that is literally all the forward is saying.

I might agree with you if there was literally any attempt at pointing to those specific writings... Of course that's not happening and never really did in any serious or credible way.

 

[Reef]

I might agree with you if there was literally any attempt at pointing to those specific writings... Of course that's not happening and never really did in any serious or credible way.

We’ve had at least two full threads pointing out specifics. In insane detail. If that wasn’t enough proof, then I don’t know what is.

Edit: and every time something is directly posted, the response is “he was joking”, “it’s out of context”, or “it was the 70’s and everyone was just as sexist!”

 

[Hussar]

You generally can't use facts and logic to argue someone out of a position that they didn't come by via facts and logic.
.

And therein lies the entire problem. You’re saying that when arguing with some people, facts no longer matter.

If the actual truth doesn’t matter to someone then their entire position is based on lies and it’s impossible to have a discussion with someone who is arguing from bad faith.

And that’s exactly what we see here with complete denial of any evidence and endless sea lining of facts that have been shown over and over again.

Facts should always matter.

 

[Umbran]

... but the recent quote shows just how easy it is to grab something like Gygax's sarcastic response

With respect, your reading of it being sarcasm is no more well supported than just taking it at his word.

If one is using sarcasm to negate or dispel an accusation, one needs to go rather over the top, to clearly indicate scoffing at what is being suggested as entirely unreasonable or preposterous. His passage does not do that. If it was sarcasm, I'd call it ineffective sarcasm.

or Jason Tondro's exasperated comment then use it out of context to wield something entirely unrelated like thaco the clown or "fighting men" with newly transplanted motive as a club against their respective authors.

So, the "club against their respective authors" are your words, not mine. I see it as merely acknowledging the reality of the man, rather than pretending at his perfection, or turning a blind eye to it.

As for Thaco the Clown - I'm sorry, I'm from that generation of gamers. I thought it was kinda funny.

 

[mamba]

I got hell from folks in the other thread for saying that he wasn't as bad as many/most sexists of that era

no, you got hell for excusing his sexism by saying 'he was a product of his time'. I know you claimed that was not a defense, but that is how it comes across

I do find it interesting, though, that of that entire post, those were the two small portions you decided to respond to.

did not have much to say on the rest, I agree that he is not the worst sexist of the 70s

 

[Maxperson]

no, you got hell for excusing his sexism by saying 'he was a product of his time'. I know you claimed that was not a defense, but that is how it comes across

Except the the undeniable fact that I never once excused it. Not one single time. I'm not responsible for misperceptions caused by not reading my posts to understand and instead reading to respond.

Listening to Understand Instead of Respond

It only takes a little bit of effort to help others feel more understood.

www.psychologytoday.com

 

[mamba]

We can't have a discussion based on "well assume the criticism he was responding to was valid reasonable & a thing you agree with" if you can't provide it or even point to specific things you feel were sexist.

I am not interested in litigating 'was Gygax sexist' all over again. There are plenty of examples, start with the foreword of a recent book you probably have heard about that started all these threads... You can agree or disagree, makes little difference to me and probably says more about you than about Gygax

 

[Umbran]

And therein lies the entire problem. You’re saying that when arguing with some people, facts no longer matter.

No. That is (factually) not what I said.

I did not say "facts no longer matter" - that indicates a progression over time that I do not assert. Nor did I say that facts are completely irrelevant. I said that their position is primarily an emotional one, such that facts alone are not going to do the trick. You'll need an emotional, empathic lever if you want to persuade them.

And, really, to be perfectly honest, one rarely argues people out of any position of any kind. Once you are in an argument, you're pretty much outside the realm of persuasiveness.

Facts should always matter.

You want a fact that should matter? Fact: Humans are not from the planet Vulcan! What needs to matter is that our brains DO NOT run on pure logic. That's the neurology we are all born with, I'm afraid. Ergo, it is a fact that things other than facts will be important to us.