D&D General The Human Side of D&D History - From Gary Gygax to Temple of Elemental Evil

not what I said, at all… All you proved is that you have no understanding of why it is a defense
No. You've simply failed(because it's not possible) to prove that it's always a defense. It can only be a defense when used as one.
All it would have been a defense of is wearing a bowtie, but since that does not come with negative connotations…
No. There's no defense of bowties there at all. It's simply informative. You're letting your biases keep you from seeing this clearly. Just because some people use it as a defense, doesn't mean everyone does.
Here is an example to show you how this works… ‘Your honor, we should not claim that Mr Gygax is sexist, he was no more sexist than many other men, and there were plenty who were more sexist than him. He was just a product of his time.’
That's how some others might use it, but not how I use it. And you have no ability to force me to use it in a way other than how I am choosing to.
which is how everyone but you is using it in these threads…
Not everyone. I've seen some others, and of course likes I get when I use it that way are folks agreeing with me.
 

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Gary's original letter supports that accusation pretty well, the tweet tried to dismiss it as sarcasm, as did you, why else even bring up that tweet
I embedded that tweet with "Gary's original letter" because she went beyond the sarcasm comment & explained how the calls for revision themselves were sexist in it. What she wrote in that tweet was:
How many "you are sexist" remarks do people need to hear before they snap and respond with sarcasm?

I can imagine those people reading this letter like that: yada yada yada yada, yes, I am sexist, yada yada yada.

The entire context of the message is ignored because of that one sentence.

Let me tell you something important: There is a huge number of Warhammer 40K girls who play without needing a concept like "fair sex." We love our Space Marines, we love our Adeptus Mechanicus, our Ork Boyz, and we also love Adepta Sororitas. If you think female players enjoy WH40K or any other wargame just because the figures have specific genders designed to pander to us, you are mistaken.

Those who keep crying for female Space Marines are not the women who play Warhammer 40K but those who want to "pander to girls." These people are sexist because they believe the hobby needs to be "adapted" for us, implying it's not something we can naturally enjoy.

Gary was right: adapting wording and mechanics to fit a female audience is more sexist than anything Gary ever said. It assumes you know better than women themselves what we think or want.
Note the bold bits, there are an awful lot of folks who have a 10,000 character limit.. She is one of those people. It's certainly possible to disagree about her use of the word "more", but she very much seems to have done a nice job of using a mofern example to spotlight that the alternatives he was being called to give "are" sexist & nobody here seems to have tried to hold up something from Gygax as an example that might throw the "more" into question... Would be nice if any such example could be limited to one that justifies a disclaimer in a history book about early d&d too.

Kinda weird to completely ignore the "are sexist" without arguing that she is wrong on that point. Taking your (quoted) post91 claim about "his original letter" you've ignored any impediment to your claims while creating a no win trap scenario where he was apparently presented with a paradoxical catch22 accusation where Gygax in addition to early d&d itself was sexist if he did rewrite early d&d but both were also sexist if he didn't rewrite by critics. It's also not exactly a historically proven success to do that kind of sexist paintjob.

Can we move on to the part where you cover the "more" refute the "are" or explain how that catch22 paradox justifies putting a warning on early d&d history that extends to the current comic code level inclusivity review bar of today that expected the warning label?
 


I embedded that tweet with "Gary's original letter" because she went beyond the sarcasm comment & explained how the calls for revision themselves were sexist in it.
this is just gaslighting at this point, calling for female space marines is not sexist, it is asking for equality. No one said that it is impossible for females to enjoy it until then.

This must be the stupidest argument I have heard in these threads yet, if I were you I’d not try and draw attention to just how wrong that tweet is, it does not help your case
 
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There is one aspect of Gygax's words that I haven't seen mentioned that occurred to me:

We know the parts of OD&D books that are considered problematic, and his forum posts defending biological determinism. From these we know that Gygax realized fairly early on that D&D, in his experience, did not appeal to female gamers as much as it did to men.

So that puts a little more context to his1975 comments in EUROPA magazine: he knew that D&D did not appeal to women. He received feedback telling him what he could do to make it more appealing to women (more emphasis on the female role, more non-gendered names, etc...). So how did he react?

His defenders say he responded with sarcasm. Is this really a defense though? Women reached out to him to tell him how he could make D&D more appealing to them and he responds with sarcasm. A sarcastic response is not a joke - it is a way to tell your audience that you do not consider the triggering statement to be worthy of a serious answer - and this is directed towards people who are interested in the game.

( for the record, I view the first part of his comments to be sarcastic, but everything from "Damn right, I'm a sexist" is in deadly earnest. I can't envision using "damn right" for emphasis in a sarcastic manner - it screams real anger to me)

And then, years later, he talks about biological determinism, in which he comes right out to say, effectively, that women do not like to play games, except for the games they do like to play because those aren't really games. And he used an example of Lionel making pastel colored trains to appeal to girls as evidence that coding toys to girls doesn't work.

Can you really read Gygax's forum posts without seeing them as an " It's not me, it's you" response?

Gygax was told early on what he could do to make D&D more appealing to women in a way far more significant than coloring things pastel. Rather than using this as an opportunity to learn from his customers, he sarcasticly mocked their concerns and justified it by blaming everyone else, rather than consider that his game could be improved.

TSR era gamers were < 10% female. Currently, the numbers are around 40%. Maybe if Gygax had taken the criticisms seriously and made an effort to appeal to female gamers back in 1e AD&D and B/X, TSR would not have been in the dire financial straits of 1984-85 that led to the management shakeup.

But in 2005, he was still blaming women for having the wrong type of brain to enjoy D&D.
 

There is one aspect of Gygax's words that I haven't seen mentioned that occurred to me:

We know the parts of OD&D books that are considered problematic, and his forum posts defending biological determinism. From these we know that Gygax realized fairly early on that D&D, in his experience, did not appeal to female gamers as much as it did to men.

So that puts a little more context to his1975 comments in EUROPA magazine: he knew that D&D did not appeal to women. He received feedback telling him what he could do to make it more appealing to women (more emphasis on the female role, more non-gendered names, etc...). So how did he react?

His defenders say he responded with sarcasm. Is this really a defense though? Women reached out to him to tell him how he could make D&D more appealing to them and he responds with sarcasm. A sarcastic response is not a joke - it is a way to tell your audience that you do not consider the triggering statement to be worthy of a serious answer - and this is directed towards people who are interested in the game.

( for the record, I view the first part of his comments to be sarcastic, but everything from "Damn right, I'm a sexist" is in deadly earnest. I can't envision using "damn right" for emphasis in a sarcastic manner - it screams real anger to me)

And then, years later, he talks about biological determinism, in which he comes right out to say, effectively, that women do not like to play games, except for the games they do like to play because those aren't really games. And he used an example of Lionel making pastel colored trains to appeal to girls as evidence that coding toys to girls doesn't work.

Can you really read Gygax's forum posts without seeing them as an " It's not me, it's you" response?

Gygax was told early on what he could do to make D&D more appealing to women in a way far more significant than coloring things pastel. Rather than using this as an opportunity to learn from his customers, he sarcasticly mocked their concerns and justified it by blaming everyone else, rather than consider that his game could be improved.

TSR era gamers were < 10% female. Currently, the numbers are around 40%. Maybe if Gygax had taken the criticisms seriously and made an effort to appeal to female gamers back in 1e AD&D and B/X, TSR would not have been in the dire financial straits of 1984-85 that led to the management shakeup.

But in 2005, he was still blaming women for having the wrong type of brain to enjoy D&D.
I don't think you realize the level of proto-satanic panic that Gygax was responding to & really believe that he was brushing off people who simpoly wanted d&d to be "more appealing"... simply because I don't think you would belive I was quoting the Europa 6-article he was responding to if I didn't come bearing scans

1733145673901.png

1733145683705.png

1733145696093.png


Starts at pg79 as listed on the scans/pg83 by PDF pagecount. Copy/paste of the questionable but readable OCR below:.
https://whiningkentpigs.com/DW/oldzines/europa6-8.pdf

Wargamer as elitist-
The following comments stem from several different sources and
ideas. Tom Oleson has made several remarKS‘to me in the past. I
have a review to appear in a future issue of "Panzerfaust" that
~touches on sexism. Than appeared Walter's comments on Wargamer—
Widow (E 4/5, p 76) ~ and the plea to complain, change recipes,
etc. ' -
Like the Immortals of the Persian Kings, wargamers are made up of
a special and limited group. Unlike the Immortals, they are not
especially picked, nor are others specifically excluded. This
group of people called wargamers seem to be middle to upper class
in background, White, male, bookish of nature, and can spend tre—
mendous amount of time and energy acting as if they Were Rommel
of the desert, etc. SP1 recently pointed out they send free games
to those serving prison terms. I think this is great. In effect,
We have little contact with women or members of the IOWer class,
and there appears to be a racial Split. I haVe met more women war—
gamers then black wargamers. I have never met a prisoner who play—
ed wargames. ' ' ' ‘
E 6—8 page 80 Jack Greene: Isla Vista
t******w**************************************w
Why do we constitute such a limited elite? This is a question to
which I hope some of the readers address themselves to. The class
split could most likely be traced to aVailability and use of games
within the middle and upper classes; further there is an "egghead"
image that would tend to mean rejection from the lower class. It
could be argued that the race split would be explained by this as
well. Quite poSSibly black wargamers are blacks who have been in»
tegrated into the middle class and hold such values as the middle
class. Finally, from a classic standpoint, the upper class tends
‘ to feel it uses its head, instead of its hands. Many wargamers
that I have known are physically totally unexcited in the life
they lead. That is, wargamers are friends who I would not expect
to be on ovarnight hikes, involved heavily in physically demanding
work or play, etc. That these are Vast generaliZations goes with-
out saying, but they may give us a perSpeotive to work from.
So why are women so uninvolved in wargaming? I would like to give
my own limited thoughts and than have a woman who lives in DAS
(my home)(cf E 3) give her view and how she interacts with her
lover (who is also a wargamer). One of the reasons I feel Warga—
ming is frowned upon by some lies in its very nature — the glori—
fication of war and killing. I know when I order ui the Austrian
reserves in "Torgau", as Daun I do not think in terms of tha dead,
but the glory and spirit of the period. I argue that it is not orb—~
1y a good Sound outlet, but that it does teach.
Another aspect of wargaming is the time and energy expanded by the
hardcore fanatic. Is there any time left for anyone else? Tom Olen
son has made the point to me of the horrible truth that a warga~
mer hides. That truth being just how much he or she would play
wargames if the feeling of guilt and the need to eat were to be

removed.

Finally, I view war as an outgrowth of hunting; sometimes a form
of scalp taking. Be it cultural or genetic (or both as I feel) men
are overwhelmingly the members of the "warrior" class. In turn,
wargaming Would tend toaappeal to them. However, the cultural in—
fluence I feel is stillavery important consideration. Women are
not "expected" to pla.y soldiers, but instead a.re expected to play

with dolls.

As a postscript, any convention should haVe something constructed
by women for women so that they do not end up at conventions with
nothing to do but Sit at dealei” 5 tables. That is, unless they
Want to enter into one of the tournaments...,
What follows is one of the first "recipes" that we had thachance
to exchange in any Wargaming publication:
There is a school of thought which puts forth the theory that
man has an instinctive drive to increase h.is territorial hol—
dings. Robert Ardrey, author of "African Genesis", calls the
drive the "territorial imperative". Although as a feminist I
object to the uSe of "man" as the generic for a.l] human kind
(including womankind), in this case I Use it advisedly. The
need for constant expansion of territory seems to me to be a
male trait; male dogs, tomcats, roosters, stallions, and bulls
are the ones who instinctively assert their masculinity by do—
ing battle with any other male of their species who invades
their neighborhood. This is the territorial imperative at

work.

Man is the only creature who consciously kills others of his
own species for sport. Man is the only animal who kills those
NOT of his own Species for sport. Man is also the only crea—
ture who kills females of his own kind for any reason. At

E 6—8, page 81* Jack Greene: Isla Vista
*******************************************************************
this point I can almost hear Jack reminding me that this was
supposed to be a statement on wargaming, So perhaps I'd better
make my point.
After living with an avid wargamer for over a year, I have come
to the realizatidn that wargaming is a form of sublimation for
the animal kingdom's territorial imperative, and not a pleasant
one, at that. It is not to his credit that a man chooses to
kill for sport, even if the"bodies" are only cardboard game—
pieces. Wargaming-is not, like chess, a game of pure strategy,
All the wargamers I have met (and I know several — all male,
needless to say), have had a strong element of the homocidal
maniac in their nature. A lust for violence — on the game-
board at least « seems to be a prerequisite for being a warga—
mer.
So far, I have tried to be theoretiCal and objective. But I am
curious to know if there are other women who have shared my
feelings of nausea and dnust when my lover has been involved
in a wargame in the next room, and I have heard him pounding
on the table, yelling "BLOOD MUST FLOWII". He is, at that mo—
ment, separated from me by a gulf that I don't eVen WANT to
bridge. It's no wonder to me that so few women are wargamers.
I think that tendency to lose touch with one’s humanity is a
trait generally shared by far more men than women, with warga—
mine as a prime example. “
Wow. There is really not too much else I wish to discuss in this
issuer
I am always open to comments and/or questions. I also hope to rem
ceiVe some feedback on the topics discussed and approach to game
reviews that I have taken for ”Europa".
(lwlh. No, I don't know who this women is who wrote the above sta—
.tements. Jack answered: "...the woman wanted to remain unknown;
she lives in the house. There will be more coming along in this
vein which has rocked me to my roots as far as my being a wargamer
and what that means in full brOad philisopichal sic — terms". I
really look forward to "more in this vein" of this unknown — and
"other — SHEs.)
((wlh. And: Re—read the last sentenCes of Jack‘s article... He .-
and all the others, including me, contribuating to E Would like
to get some response from you; there can't be a silent majority
in a zine like E I even consider whether I shouldn't limit he
permission (1) to subscribe to those who are willing to contribute
more or less regularely... Actually, why not?
I have no feedback—system — and I don't intend to ever have one,
Since I don't believe in it. But: there are your letters, your re—
views in other zines « this is the only feedback—system I agree

with.

But, again, your comments and your reviews are of no big use, if
you only write that Jack’s, Tom's, Rian’s (etc etc) article has
been excellent/good/interesting §etc etc) as usual — though, of
course this also is nice of you and better than nothing at all
or even the contrary). neviews mentioning that E has imprOVed, is
an excellent zine (etc etc) are nice too, and of course I am 1i—
king them also. But, that is not what I, what we really need (nor
do I intend torpfiblish this kind of reviews and comments here — as
others do in their Mail/Reader's Columns).
PleaSe, be more precise: write your THOUGHTS, your ideas, your mo—
re detailed comments. At least, if you are interested also that
those contribuating to E continue to write such articles...)).
It made Chick tracts about blackleaf sound like positively reasonable criticism & we should remember that this is a topic where multiple posters calling Gygax & early d&d sexist have stated that we can't assume sarcasm or anything of the sort & need to take all of that as if it were writted in the totally seriousnes manner it seems to present as.
 

we should remember that this is a topic where multiple posters calling Gygax & early d&d sexist have stated that we can't assume sarcasm or anything of the sort & need to take all of that as if it were writted in the totally seriousnes manner it seems to present as.
I have no idea how you think the stuff you posted helps with that in any form, or relates to a proto-satanic panic

All it shows is that Gary had a mighty high opinion of himself “Why do we [wargamers] constitute such a limited elite”… and then goes on to describe how the middle class and up supposedly are, which he clearly must consider himself a part of while only having a high school degree and barely making ends meet as a cobbler because his obsession with wargames got him fired from his white collar job… delusions of grandeur
 

I have no idea how you think the stuff you posted helps with that in any form, or relates to a proto-satanic panic

All it shows is that Gary had a mighty high opinion of himself “Why do we [wargamers] constitute such a limited elite”… and then goes on to describe how the middle class and up supposedly are, which he clearly must consider himself a part of while only having a high school degree and barely making ends meet as a cobbler because his obsession with wargames got him fired from his white collar job… delusions of grandeur

What is wrong with only having a high school degree?
 


Nothing. But only having a high school degree AND barely making ends meet as a cobbler because his obsession with wargames got him fired from his white collar job could be a problem.

If he was still earning money and working towards a goal that eventually put food on the table and roof over their heads, I don't see why this, and the lack of a college education in particular, should impugn him or any claim he may have made to being smart (I am not a fan of the elite attitude expressed in his quote but I don't think holding only a high school degree precludes someone from making such a claim). Also this was a time when you could work a blue collar job and be middle class. heck I know lots of people who have blue collar jobs today who are solidly middle class. I guess I just don't get why being a cobbler or not having a degree presents any issue here to what he said
 

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