D&D General “‘Scantily Clad and Well Proportioned’: Sexism and Gender Stereotyping in the Gaming Worlds of TSR and Dungeons & Dragons.”

[Bedrockgames]

That David Martin cover looks pretty tame and quite artful to me

 

[Bedrockgames]

You compared the reaction to it as too sexy to the Satanic Panic. There is a vast gulf between the two. If you really can't see how ruined lives and prison sentences are different from people speaking out against sexism, I'm not sure what to say.

The satanic panic had a lot of facets. Some of those facets were religious groups overreacting and trying to censor art, music, books and games

 

[Zardnaar]

You compared the reaction to it as too sexy to the Satanic Panic. There is a vast gulf between the two. If you really can't see how ruined lives and prison sentences are different from people speaking out against sexism, I'm not sure what to say.

People declare themselves right and try complain about things other people like.

Well art at least. Always subjective and often offensive.

Either way I'm glad we have the righteous going around telling everyone what acceptable with art. I foresee no problems with this attitude whatsoever.

Two different flavors of prudes.

 

[LordEntrails]

That didn't occur to me as a thought... It was an unpublished work read aloud at a presentation and then posted online on websites with free access. I also directly credited him as the author and was only presenting it as a 'here's a thing'.

Do you think I should go further and contact him to make sure it's okay, or am I probably in the clear, here?

I don't know what the standard is for these types of works. I don't know why they author would complain, but... I guess it just makes me uncomfortable? You don't have to do anything on my behalf, but if it were me, I would at least reach out if I knew of a contact for the author and at least let them know and ask if they are ok with it.

 

[LordEntrails]

Dudes continue to compare a masculine power fantasy with a masculine sexual fantasy as if they're equally interchangeable with feminine power fantasy and feminine sexual fantasy.

I can see why someone might equate the two. But there is so much more, so much impact that is so different.

I wish we could just look at both as forms of art and appreciate each image for it's own. But, imo, until rape, domestic violence and abuse no longer show a sex-bias, they will not have equal implications to me.

 

[Vaalingrade]

Seriously if you read that article' all the things that were said in done as part of this community, all the crappy attitude and treatment of people and the only takeaway you get from that is 'wait, but I liked that one painting-- you guys are a bunch of prudes, how DARE you!'... I don't even know what to say.

 

[Steampunkette]

I can see why someone might equate the two. But there is so much more, so much impact that is so different.

I wish we could just look at both as forms of art and appreciate each image for it's own. But, imo, until rape, domestic violence and abuse no longer show a sex-bias, they will not have equal implications to me.

There's nothing -wrong- with masculine sexual -or- power fantasy. Scantily clad women in fantasy environments men wish they could be with and big burly powerful men swinging giant weapons they wish they could be is totally fine and dandy.

It's the "Clearly, a woman's power fantasy is to be scantily clad in a fantasy realm and ogled by dudes while ogling big overly muscled slabs of man meat, herself, is her sexual fantasy" that bugs me.

These things don't translate 1 to 1, but people pretend like they do in order to shove their head in the sand and not acknowledge that something is catered specifically, and exclusively, toward them.

(That isn't to say there aren't women out there with such power and sexual fantasies, it's just not the average and them getting benefits from young heterosexual men being catered to is at best an afterthought)

 

[Charlaquin]

Spirit of the Night lol. Thought it was reasonably tasteful.

You know I've thought about doing a redraw of David Martin's cover but I don't really care for it. I'd heard it caused some stir but I don't really consider it much worse than some of the other covers. Dragon 52 for example.

On its own, yeah, the piece is probably fine, but as @MGibster very astutely observed, the problem is not with individual artworks being inappropriate in a vacuum, it’s about whether it’s appropriate in the context it’s being presented in, and (imo more significantly) how women are depicted in aggregate within the hobby. A work like Spirit of the Night is, for the most part, not distasteful on its own. But, it’s probably not the piece to put on the cover of the magazine, and more importantly, if the majority (or even a large plurality)of the art of women in the books and magazines is like that, most women aren’t going to feel welcome in the hobby. And then to make matters worse, the relative absence of women within the hobby is then cited as justification for the majority of those depictions being sexualized. “For whatever reason,” the hobby doesn’t appeal to women. As if no one could have guessed that the art might have something to do with it. Or, you know, listened to any of the women writing in to say that the art is making the hobby less appealing to them.

 

[Steampunkette]

On its own, yeah, the piece is probably fine, but as @MGibster very astutely observed, the problem is not with individual artworks being inappropriate in a vacuum, it’s about whether it’s appropriate in the context it’s being presented in, and (imo more significantly) how women are depicted in aggregate within the hobby. A work like Spirit of the Night is, for the most part, not distasteful on its own. But, it’s probably not the piece to put on the cover of the magazine, and more importantly, if the majority (or even a large plurality)of the art of women in the books and magazines is like that, most women aren’t going to feel welcome in the hobby. And then to make matters worse, the relative absence of women within the hobby is then cited as justification for the majority of those depictions being sexualized. “For whatever reason,” the hobby doesn’t appeal to women. As if no one could have guessed that the art might have something to do with it. Or, you know, listened to any of the women writing in to say that the art is making the hobby less appealing to them.

Yes!

Also the homosocial atmosphere. Focusing in on guys and cracking jokes about women and portraying women in games to be sex objects, victims, or villains for the most part... And the nasty attitudes around tables and at conventions.

Plus the infamous "Unwashed Masses" issue that is historically more likely to drive women away from gaming rather than guys.


Granted, that's much more "Niche" now than it used to be, and is a stereotype.

 

[MGibster]

That David Martin cover looks pretty tame and quite artful to me

For me, context is important. I like the David Martin painting as well. If I owned a 1973 Chevrolet Van I'd want Martin's picture painted on the side of it. Or maybe a unicorn flying through space. I'm a multifaceted man with depth after all. Is it something I'd leave on the coffee table where guests might see it? No.

One of the many problems with these discussions is any one of us can point out the merits of a work of art someone else approves of. Me, personally, I think there's a place for cheesecake in fantasy art, even in D&D, but that doesn't mean I want to see it everywhere and there's a limit to how cakey I think is appropriate for most fantasy games. The key I think is not to look at individual paintings, miniatures, or other depictions but to look at it in the aggregate.

I think things have improved quite a bit over the last forty years. I paint a lot of minatures, and it wasn't that long ago where I had a hard time finding appropriate miniatures for women characters in the D&D games I was running. If you shop at some place like Reaper Miniatures, you'll find a lot of miniatures of women ranging from scantily clad fetish nuns all the way to fully armored and even inbetween. I've got a great dwarf woman miniature wearing plate and showing an excellent decolletage. Practical? Hell no. But the woman I painted it for loved it for her character.