D&D General “‘Scantily Clad and Well Proportioned’: Sexism and Gender Stereotyping in the Gaming Worlds of TSR and Dungeons & Dragons.”

[Ruin Explorer]

Knowing that the racist trope it springs from is literally called the 'Mulatto Tragedy' and is all about how I should know my place and be sad... I'm going to use that terminology.

The racist variant of the trope springs from there, yes, but the idea that's the first time the concept of someone being torn between two worlds, either by how they were brought up or how they were raised is just... wrong. It's not even arguable. It's something that's come up in stories and mythology for thousands of years.

So you're really proving my point re: that attitude being reductive. Because a trope was once used in a racist way after being used for thousands of years, we now have to see all instances of it as referring to that particular racist way.

Very often neither of the worlds involved has much to do with race/species, let alone human races with a master/slave relationship.

 

[tetrasodium]

Of course they would be treated differently. It's a fundamentally different action. How could it be the same? These actions don't exist in some context-free vacuum. The current world isn't a gender-neutral place. It's a male-dominated place, and a woman's naked body isn't currently a neutral thing without meaning. If we ever somehow achieve a gender-neutral society and keep it thus for enough generations that true gender equality can be said to exist, perhaps then those actions would be the same. But, like, if someone did that today? In reality? Context.

That's kind of The Idea, Here. The problem isn't directly the art. The problem is the art in the context that it exists in. If you accurately point out that a dress is ill-fitting and you're a professional fashion designer at a runway show, you would be treated differently than if you accurately point out that a dress is ill-fitting and you're a groom standing at an altar and your bride is in front of you in that ill-fitting dress. Context helps determine meaning.

Sexism, in context, is related to social power.

Which is why for cis men like me, it's often useful to start with first acknowledging male social power, and how that's used (and has been used historically). That's the context we all exist in. And in that context, a woman making or buying that art is not the same as me making or buying that art. It does not make sense for those people to be treated the same.

At what point does this white knighting result in a a complete ban on humanoid artwork by restricting too sexy too fat t& too everything else? At some point long before that it's worth questioning if the respective inclusivity review bars for male artwork and female artwork looks like early and late stage limbo competition positioning.

Chris Hemsworth Says He Isn't Taken Seriously as an Actor Because of His Muscles

Chris Hemsworth said that he's not taken as seriously as an actor because of the muscle-building he has to do for his role in Thor

people.com

https://www.justjared.com/2017/10/30/chris-hemsworth-doesnt-mind-being-exploited-with-shirtless-scenes/

Do we extend the filter criteria to extend across body type like twink daddy chub & others like leatherdaddies lumbersexual too? I know that I've seen all of those and more in 5e books... might be worth accepting that it's ok for folks questioning the ttrpg equipment of measuring skirt length when the male equivalent is not even under white knight consideration.

 

[Ruin Explorer]

Squires I'll give you. Henchmen and Hirelings are almost never characters within the story. They just kind of exist in the background as a presumed male but ultimately genderless workforce that, if we're honest, barely gets mentioned at all in most games outside of "They're back at camp" or something similar.

Where do we draw the line between squires, henchmen and hirelings? My experience with all of the above is that players love naming and describing them, that it's one of the places where even players who aren't normally keen to assert fiction come alive a bit.

I don't know that that impacts your point re: "people as reward", but it's strange to me to see that asserted, for me. That's never been my experience (nor has my experience been that they're assumed to be male/genderless - but equally in 35 years I've never seen anyone "mess" with a squire/henchmen/hireling in a sexual way or whatever, and I know you've seen a lot more of that kind of thing).

white knighting

If you're using the phrase "white knighting" in all seriousness and without irony, as you appear to be, you should probably give up, or at least edit and rephrase carefully, because "white knight" is solely a derogatory and utterly subjective term that people roll out to insult and demean others, and specifically to imply they're arguing in bad faith or from bad motivations. To say it's deeply unhelpful would be to understate how problematic it is.

 

[Steampunkette]

Ways to make your fantasy races different:

1) Elves: BORED. They don't bother to play games as adults and only dedicated elves bother with music, art, or other crafts. They spent 40 years as 'Kids' playing every variation of Hide and Seek, and 60 years as 'Teenagers' doing every variation of Poker. They've been listening to music for hundreds of years and when a song gets stuck in their heads it takes months to get it out so they mostly just don't bother. "Yes, I spent 60 years mastering Sculpture but after doing it for -so long- you start to notice the marble all looks the same." Elves don't really do anything with their downtime except sit round vegetating unless some human or something -drags- them off to do an activity which they invariably excel at because of having done it TO DEATH 20 years ago. However, every new Fad gets them SO EXCITED until they burn out on it, too.

2) Dwarves: Constantly annoyed. Like so annoyed. The sun is too bright the streets are too busy, there's too much -color- everywhere and all the food is bland as paper. Dwarves evolved underground in the quiet places of the earth with the sound of hammers and chisels ringing out. Their beards are long and thicker than any human hair because they're evolved to catch rock-dust and keep dwarves from breathing it in. Which makes human foods smell -dull- because Dwarf Food needs to be spiced to hell and back for them to be able to smell it fully for their tastebuds to engage. Plus human spices are all weak baby stuff compared to the poisons dwarves use in their food. Oh, sure, we use capsaicin and other -mild- poisons, but dwarves season their food with arsenic and cinnabar. UGH. The surface world is such a disappointment in every way.

3) Halflings: Quiet. TOO quiet. When you're a tiny mammal living in a forest with massive predators you tend to be light-footed and tight lipped. Others are unnerved at your tendency to stare at them because halflings mostly communicate through facial expressions and body language which tends to not attract tigers and ankhegs quite as much as talking or dancing. At least in public spaces. Within the safety of a building where walls and ceiling protect you from giant owls and boogles of giant weasels, they're -able- to be loud and capricious and let out all the pent up nerves they've been fighting with all day. Never put a halfling in a jail cell, keep them in open air prisons or they'll talk your ear off!

 

[Ruin Explorer]

Ways to make your fantasy races different:

1) Elves: BORED. They don't bother to play games as adults and only dedicated elves bother with music, art, or other crafts. They spent 40 years as 'Kids' playing every variation of Hide and Seek, and 60 years as 'Teenagers' doing every variation of Poker. They've been listening to music for hundreds of years and when a song gets stuck in their heads it takes months to get it out so they mostly just don't bother. "Yes, I spent 60 years mastering Sculpture but after doing it for -so long- you start to notice the marble all looks the same." Elves don't really do anything with their downtime except sit round vegetating unless some human or something -drags- them off to do an activity which they invariably excel at because of having done it TO DEATH 20 years ago. However, every new Fad gets them SO EXCITED until they burn out on it, too.

2) Dwarves: Constantly annoyed. Like so annoyed. The sun is too bright the streets are too busy, there's too much -color- everywhere and all the food is bland as paper. Dwarves evolved underground in the quiet places of the earth with the sound of hammers and chisels ringing out. Their beards are long and thicker than any human hair because they're evolved to catch rock-dust and keep dwarves from breathing it in. Which makes human foods smell -dull- because Dwarf Food needs to be spiced to hell and back for them to be able to smell it fully for their tastebuds to engage. Plus human spices are all weak baby stuff compared to the poisons dwarves use in their food. Oh, sure, we use capsaicin and other -mild- poisons, but dwarves season their food with arsenic and cinnabar. UGH. The surface world is such a disappointment in every way.

3) Halflings: Quiet. TOO quiet. When you're a tiny mammal living in a forest with massive predators you tend to be light-footed and tight lipped. Others are unnerved at your tendency to stare at them because halflings mostly communicate through facial expressions and body language which tends to not attract tigers and ankhegs quite as much as talking or dancing. At least in public spaces. Within the safety of a building where walls and ceiling protect you from giant owls and boogles of giant weasels, they're -able- to be loud and capricious and let out all the pent up nerves they've been fighting with all day. Never put a halfling in a jail cell, keep them in open air prisons or they'll talk your ear off!

I like the Elf and Halfling takes but aren't you describing nearly the default Dwarf take here? Or maybe being British we're more Warhammer-influenced and the constantly-complaining, constantly-annoyed Dwarf is the stereotype more here.

 

[AnotherGuy]

If you're using the phrase "white knighting" in all seriousness and without irony, as you appear to be, you should probably give up, or at least edit and rephrase carefully, because "white knight" is solely a derogatory and utterly subjective term that people roll out to insult and demean others, and specifically to imply they're arguing in bad faith or from bad motivations. To say it's deeply unhelpful would be to understate how problematic it is.

Out of curiosity to you disagree with its use here.
Do note I did XP the poster even though I did not necessarily agree with everything that was said.

 

[Frozen_Heart]

I like the idea that dwarves will season their food with things which are poisonous to other species. Due to their innate resistance.

 

[TiQuinn]

Out of curiosity to you disagree with its use here.
Do note I did XP the poster even though I did not necessarily agree with everything that was said.

Not who you were directing it to, but to me “White Knight” is typically a dismissive and reductive insult in modern parlance.

 

[Steampunkette]

Where do we draw the line between squires, henchmen and hirelings? My experience with all of the above is that players love naming and describing them, that it's one of the places where even players who aren't normally keen to assert fiction come alive a bit.

I don't know that that impacts your point re: "people as reward", but it's strange to me to see that asserted, for me. That's never been my experience (nor has my experience been that they're assumed to be male/genderless - but equally in 35 years I've never seen anyone "mess" with a squire/henchmen/hireling in a sexual way or whatever, and I know you've seen a lot more of that kind of thing).

It's probably because I imagine them as different layers of involvement with the story and we might be on cross-definitions?

Squires tend to be a companion character that sticks around and travels with the PC for extended periods, becoming a full fledged member of the story. Sometimes "Henchmen" are also in this category, particularly if the Henchman in question is more of a bodyguard or personal servant or steward. Someone who is always, or almost always, present. I still consider those characters, whether trying to get knighted or not, in the 'Squire' category for the purposes of story involvement.

Where Henchmen or Servants as a category of involvement tend to be "Elsewhere". Often back at camp or taking care of the Stronghold or acting on the PC's orders to do something on their behalf at a different location of the setting aside from reporting in now and then. In my experience someone with 1-3 henchmen will probably name them, but if they've got a small army of henchmen or servants most of them are faceless entities and they have a leader or two that the PC actually gets at all involved with and only for short scenes where they're giving orders or taking the money/benefits their henchmen/servants/army/whatever is giving them.

Hirelings just kind of exist within a specific moment of a story. The carrying a torch in a dungeon (until they're hit by a trap), piloting the ship moving from port to port (until the ship is destroyed in a naval encounter), or driving the party around town in a coach (until they get into a high speed chase and the hireling is thrown off the coach to presumably die in a gutter).

 

[Ruin Explorer]

Out of curiosity to you disagree with its use here.
Do note I did XP the poster even though I did not necessarily agree with everything that was said.

I agree with the broad point being made in the linked post, but I think it's a pretty silly phrase to bandy around, and to be avoided unless there's a really good reason, and you really do want to imply that the person you're describing is arguing in bad faith and/or from bad motivations. Which is kind of questionable, especially on ENworld.

It's usually a phrase used to sneer and demean anyone who protects someone else in a way that might be perceived as altruistic, and to imply that in fact, that person is just a scumbag who doesn't actually believe that, but says it to look good (i.e. in much the same ways as equally to be avoided "virtue signalling"), or that they're an arrogant dimwit speaking for others they don't understand, or both.

It's a cheap insult, not a useful or accurate descriptor.