D&D General Playstyle vs Mechanics

[Emerikol]

It wasnt a Tolkien simulator at all, its whole focus was on pulp fantasy dungeon skirmishing and I think that pretty much remains the style of play for DnD, just with a much broader view of what can be a dungeon and how challenges can be overcome.

So we agree right? That was my point unless you are just agreeing with me to lend your support.

 

[Oofta]

While this could be true, I don't think market dominance eliminates the idea that D&D could be everyone's second choice. If the group all likes different things, then they settle on an acceptable D&D versus playing one of the others favorites.

And I am more nitpicking your argument than your conclusion. I suspect as you seem to that many people don't even know other games exist. I call them the filler players. They don't go to enworld. They don't read hobby sites. They just know D&D and they buy whatever they need to buy to play. This is why WOTC can get away with practically murder. They will always keep the fillers and there is always at least one group for the murder.

Second choice for some people? Sure. For everyone? Absolutely not. It's the first choice for myself and everyone in my home (groups). Doesn't mean I couldn't enjoy using other systems, just that I see no need to do invest time, money and effort any more than I already have into them.

So I disagree with pretty much everything you said. It's the old "If you don't like what I like, it's because you're ignorant" strawman.

 

[tetrasodium]

It wasnt a Tolkien simulator at all, its whole focus was on pulp fantasy dungeon skirmishing and I think that pretty much remains the style of play for DnD, just with a much broader view of what can be a dungeon and how challenges can be overcome.

That is arguably pretty true about most of the older editions - even still pretty doable even in editions like 3x that went in a somewhat different path. With 5e though it's hard to claim that the extreme end of the scale super hero baselines are pulp anything

 

[Emerikol]

Second choice for some people? Sure. For everyone? Absolutely not. It's the first choice for myself and everyone in my home (groups). Doesn't mean I couldn't enjoy using other systems, just that I see no need to do invest time, money and effort any more than I already have into them.

So I disagree with pretty much everything you said. It's the old "If you don't like what I like, it's because you're ignorant" strawman.

You must have completely misread that post. I said I disagreed with his logic but accepted his conclusion. The fact a game is a best selling game is NOT proof it is anyone's first choice. I gave the logic in the previous post.

And if you are complaining about my take on the great unwashed group that just buys D&D, I'd ask you to look over the past three decades and be honest, was D&D always the best product? I think not. If Pathfinder had been D&D 4e, it would have sold vastly more copies. I'm not saying YOU are that way. I'm not saying EVERY 5e fan is that way. I'm just saying there are people who stick with D&D through thick and thin.

 

[Oofta]

You must have completely misread that post. I said I disagreed with his logic but accepted his conclusion. The fact a game is a best selling game is NOT proof it is anyone's first choice. I gave the logic in the previous post.

And if you are complaining about my take on the great unwashed group that just buys D&D, I'd ask you to look over the past three decades and be honest, was D&D always the best product? I think not. If Pathfinder had been D&D 4e, it would have sold vastly more copies. I'm not saying YOU are that way. I'm not saying EVERY 5e fan is that way. I'm just saying there are people who stick with D&D through thick and thin.

And I'm saying that your personal opinion isn't proof of anything. It's not the second favorite for a lot of people because they have different preferences than you do. It's not just "acceptable", it's an enjoyable game. Given infinite time to play and resources perhaps I could find a different game that I prefer more but that's irrelevant. There will always going to be some hypothetical "better".

Calling people who play and enjoy D&D "the great unwashed masses" because you happen to like other games is an insult. The majority of people who played D&D in the 21st century have been playing 5E because of it's increased popularity (which has many, many factors), but plenty of people jumped ship during 4E. I gave 4E the old college try, when I decided it was no longer working for me I considered options. As it happened 5E was that option.

There is no "best" product for everyone. D&D 5E is not everyone's second choice, even if it is the second choice for a vocal minority.

 

[Imaro]

That is arguably pretty true about most of the older editions - even still pretty doable even in editions like 3x that went in a somewhat different path. With 5e though it's hard to claim that the extreme end of the scale super hero baselines are pulp anything

Pulp also includes heroes such as Elric, Corum, Kane the Immortal and Imaro... all of whom would be right at home next to high level 5e characters.

 

[soviet]

It's kind of funny but other than non-human races using the iconic Tolkien ones including culture (somewhat), I never thought D&D was ever claiming to be simulating a Lord of the Rings experience.

To me the original game was dungeon wargaming which was player skill based and involved tactics and exploration. In a short while, world building came in which involve campaign/domain mechanics at higher levels. Life was fairly cheap including character life.

I agree 100%. But I think that a lot of players from 2e (arguably, 1e in the form of Dragonlance) onwards have come in assuming it does support that Lord of the Rings experience, encouraged somewhat by the language and art used, and hence have experienced a dissonance that they solve with the methods I described.

 

[soviet]

While this could be true, I don't think market dominance eliminates the idea that D&D could be everyone's second choice. If the group all likes different things, then they settle on an acceptable D&D versus playing one of the others favorites.

Agreed. My understanding of the 'D&D is everyone's second choice' principle is that D&D is at least everyone's second choice. A preferred choice to many and an acceptable compromise to others.

 

[TwoSix]

I agree 100%. But I think that a lot of players from 2e (arguably, 1e in the form of Dragonlance) onwards have come in assuming it does support that Lord of the Rings experience, encouraged somewhat by the language and art used, and hence have experienced a dissonance that they solve with the methods I described.

And that strand of playstyle that became the Hickman revolution, and was dominant by the release of 2e, existed in the player base since the first spread of the game.

None of that is surprising. Different styles exist across every type of game (and every type of storytelling medium) because people start with different preferences, and apply those preferences to the activity in front of them.

Mechanics evolve to match intrinsic preferences for different playstyles. And when you have something totemic or singular (like D&D was in that time period, and arguably still is), groups with differing and often contradictory preferences will fight over it; that leaves the mechanics partially supporting many playstyles.

 

[soviet]

And I'm saying that your personal opinion isn't proof of anything. It's not the second favorite for a lot of people because they have different preferences than you do. It's not just "acceptable", it's an enjoyable game. Given infinite time to play and resources perhaps I could find a different game that I prefer more but that's irrelevant. There will always going to be some hypothetical "better".

Calling people who play and enjoy D&D "the great unwashed masses" because you happen to like other games is an insult. The majority of people who played D&D in the 21st century have been playing 5E because of it's increased popularity (which has many, many factors), but plenty of people jumped ship during 4E. I gave 4E the old college try, when I decided it was no longer working for me I considered options. As it happened 5E was that option.

There is no "best" product for everyone. D&D 5E is not everyone's second choice, even if it is the second choice for a vocal minority.

You're taking things too literally. 'The great unwashed masses' is clearly an exaggeration for comedic effect. I don't think Emerikol was actually describing D&D's playerbase this way.