D&D General Just sweeping dirty dishes under the rug: D&D, Sexism, and the '70s

[MGibster]

I hate the complaints about disclaimers SO MUCH.

I think the content warning is a bit silly, but it doesn't bother me in the least. If I hadn't specifically looked for the content warning when I recently purchased the 1983 Greyhawk set I would have missed it entirely. The reason I find the content warning silly is that I don't really see it serving any purpose beyond making WotC feel good about themselves.

1. The warning doesn't really give an idea of what the contents might be.
2. Who buys a game product from 30-40 years ago expecting it to be up to modern sensibilities?

But that warning is essentially harmless, so I can only be amused by it. Then again I'm the guy who laughed out loud when watching The Sandman on Netflix and one episode had content warnings for self-harm and tobacco use. Self-harm I could understand, but tobacco use? I couldn't help but picture a concerned mother being okay with the self-harm but stopping their precious child from watching because of the tobacco use.

I think the only reason Dark Sun hasn’t gotten a makeover is due to popularity. Ravenloft was problematic as hell but Strahd and horror in general sells books, so Ravenloft got done.

There is plenty of "problematic" material in Curse of Strahd including genocide, drug abuse, human trafficking, child abuse, the murder of children, and Strahd himself does not have a very enlightened attitude when it comes to romantic relationships.

 

[TiQuinn]

I don't agree with the idea that art is more restrained nowdays.
Just to pick TV as an example...

Always Sunny
South Park
Family Guy

are all still running.

Interesting point, but then I think of a show like All in the Family and wonder if that could get greenlighted today. Makes me think there’s always some sort of third rail in terms of subject matter that media just won’t touch, even if that subject matter changes. It’s more that the idea of what is restrained shifts. Even looking back at the early 00s, it seemed to me that every comedy that came out seemed to be at the expense of the LGBTQ+ community, or at least felt comfortable taking pot shots at it, and even that is far more muted than some of the content from earlier decades.

 

[TiQuinn]

There is plenty of "problematic" material in Curse of Strahd including genocide, drug abuse, human trafficking, child abuse, the murder of children, and Strahd himself does not have a very enlightened attitude when it comes to romantic relationships.

And I’m willing to bet that Curse of Strahd will get remake after remake with further edits to material while Dark Sun maybe, possibly, someday sees daylight (or not.)

 

[Bedrockgames]

I don't agree with the idea that art is more restrained nowdays.
Just to pick TV as an example...

Always Sunny
South Park
Family Guy

are all still running.

I think some media got grandfathered in but you would have a hard time starting these shows today (especially the first several seasons of them)

Or to bring it to gaming and use previously mentioned examples, you couldn't do Jeff Dee's Morgan Ironwolf in a D&D book today, and WOTC wouldn't put out Dark Sun without making serious revisions to the setting. I don't think Jeff Dee was trying to do anything bad (artful nudes were pretty common in fantasy in those days and his is quite tame by those standards), and Dark Sun certainly wasn't trying to do anything bad (it was about as progressive as a setting can get). The issue I think is people are much less prone to charitable interpretations of art and media these days and it is often not worth the hassle of dealing with any controversy

 

[Bedrockgames]

Does it? Are you factoring the stuff that people can create and get published now that they couldn't 30 years ago?

Also for clarity, I am saying something has shifted for the worse in terms of free expression in the past ten years or so (So I am not saying reset everything back to thirty years ago). And I am also not saying there haven't been good things we should keep in the past ten years. I think anyone working in a creative industry who is honest with themselves and their audience knows it is harder to authentically express yourself

 

[MGibster]

And I’m willing to bet that Curse of Strahd will get remake after remake with further edits to material while Dark Sun maybe, possibly, someday sees daylight (or not.)

That's just it, this is a never ending process. We constantly evaluate and re-evaluate material and what it means to us. It could very well be that ten years from now attitudes shift and suddenly the problematic things about Dark Sun just aren't a big deal to most players. I don't know. Maybe?

 

[Bedrockgames]

I hate the complaints about disclaimers SO MUCH.

Look, we all know something can get Song of the South'd. Remember the whole fiasco about Community (the D&D episode) getting pulled?

I'd much rather a disclaimer than not being able to access something at all. Especially given the continued reliance on streaming, and concurrent loss of people owning their media. I completely understand why certain things should require context, from Gone With the Wind to Mein Kampf to Birth of a Nation, but I'd much rather have things be available, with context and/or disclaimers, than have them disappear.


Also, I just realized that of the three choices, one of them is ... not as bad. STILL BAD! But there are always levels. Like, nine. According to Asmodeus and Dante. I'll take their word for it. Maybe they need to expand, what with all the bards going there.

I'd rather have a disclaimer than censorship. But I think the disclaimer is overly broad, I don't think it is helpful (people should be able to read old books and understand before hand they may have content that don't match modern sensibilities). But people should also be able to make the assessment for themselves with each product in question rather than having the conclusion loaded on the front cover

 

[Snarf Zagyg]

And this is why only focusing on government control of speech misses that there can be other powerful institutions and forces that shape what people feel they can and can't say. What happened with speech and free expression around this issue, is why I never support anything related to boycotts or public pressure. I feel like over the course of my life, at least in the arts, it felt like a gradual opening up of expression and freedom to create, but that we slowly started to reverse course sometime after 2010 (often with reasons that were benevolent but ultimately resulted in there being less creative freedom rather than than more). Again though to quote Tarantino, now we are largely doing it to ourselves. You don't need government censorship or even corporate censorship when people are policing one another. However to be clear, I am not at all saying that is in any way the same thing as having state control of speech and expression (all you have to do is look at states where the government has strict control of what people say to know there is a major difference there).

Well, we are moving far afield of the topic. I will just say that (absent other law) the principles of the First Amendment apply only to the government for a very good reason. Speech that offends, provokes, and shocks needs to be protected from the government, but it wouldn't be a very interesting world if speech was protected from other people not liking it- after all, speech can have consequences, and that's one of the reasons it can be so powerful. I wouldn't want a world where private parties (like me and you) were forced to listen to each other without the ability to disapprove of each other's speech. Including by just .... walking away. The original boycott.

As for the issue of corporate entities being too powerful? That's not a speech problem.

 

[Bedrockgames]

That's just it, this is a never ending process. We constantly evaluate and re-evaluate material and what it means to us. It could very well be that ten years from now attitudes shift and suddenly the problematic things about Dark Sun just aren't a big deal to most players. I don't know. Maybe?

I think my issue with it isn't so much about sensibilities changing. Sensibilities and taboos change over time. This is inevitable. But how pre-occupied we are with content being problematic. It is just such a focus that all the energy fees drained from the room. And the conversation around the topics feels so stifled as well

 

[Bedrockgames]

As for the issue of corporate entities being too powerful? That's not a speech problem.

Except you yourself pointed to how corporate censorship and social pressure were used to stifle the free expression of LBGTQ people for ages. I would say the power that corporations are able to wield over what people say is very much a speech issue (obviously cooperate power goes beyond speech issues into other areas though). If you work for a company and they are able to control what you can say outside the workplace: that is a speech issue. I am not a lawyer, I know I am not going to win a debate with you on this. But in my bones, I know corporations can use their power to stifle free expression