D&D General 5e D&D to OSR pipeline or circle?

[Aldarc]

I remember hearing about OSRIC for the first time -- on this very site! -- and saying "huh, I guess that's interesting; no desire to play it, though," having paid my dues with 1E and never wanting to consult a to-hit or saving throw table again.

Don't you also talk about fondly of the games made by Flatland Games (e.g., Beyond the Wall, Grizzled Adventurers, Through Sunken Ruins) that have saving throw tables?

It was only after OSR began to mutate and flower beyond the retroclone stage that I became interested. I had played those original games and stopped playing them for a reason. (Seriously, the unified d20 resolution mechanic of 3E got my players and I so excited when we heard about it.)

But yeah, I was completely uninterested in the beginnings of OSR. I was playing True20 and later 4e D&D in those days. I believe that my "gateway OSR product" was actually Black Hack, and from there to Beyond the Wall, Stars Without Number, and then a lot of the Into the Odd-like games. I only really became interested in OSE when I began seeing what Gavin was doing with Dolmenwood, which is definitely the sort of fantasy right down my alley.

 

[pemerton]

This gets into an older discussion that we’ve had in the past. I’m not a proponent of the idea of “skillful” play or talking about “cheapening” of the game because it frankly reeks of snobbish gatekeeping. I don’t see why one should care whether one had the experience of playing a PC to a high level versus someone creating a 10th level PC for the first time. It is a means of saying “your game is wrong, and mine is right” for a game that even the author dismissed his own rules he published for others within his own game.

It's not gatekeeping to talk about skill in play. I mean, sticking just to myself, I'm a reasonable player of five hundred, but a terrible player of chess. And I'm also not a very good player of "skilled play" D&D - I lack the patience both as player and as GM.

I remember the first time one of my original play group joined a game with my university game group. He commented that "A___________ is a really good magic-user player". And the comment was correct - A___________ was hardly to be equalled in his knowledge of what his spells could do, the cleverness of his choices in deploying them, etc. It was obvious to this other player after one session.

Conversely, I've played with people who are terrible players of MUs - careless about spell selection, terrible sense of when and how to use their spells, etc.

None of this is about "yours is wrong, mine is right". It's about recognising, and admiring (when it's another) or taking pride in (when it's oneself), expertise, deftness, cleverness, etc.

 

[zakael19]

Don't you also talk about fondly of the games made by Flatland Games (e.g., Beyond the Wall, Grizzled Adventurers, Through Sunken Ruins) that have saving throw tables?


But yeah, I was completely uninterested in the beginnings of OSR. I was playing True20 and later 4e D&D in those days. I believe that my "gateway OSR product" was actually Black Hack, and from there to Beyond the Wall, Stars Without Number, and then a lot of the Into the Odd-like games. I only really became interested in OSE when I began seeing what Gavin was doing with Dolmenwood, which is definitely the sort of fantasy right down my alley.

I'm not sure I actually want to use Dolmenwood's class structure, but I 100% want to run a game using the world (probably with Freebooters on the Frontier). Such good stuff.

 

[TiQuinn]

It's not gatekeeping to talk about skill in play. I mean, sticking just to myself, I'm a reasonable player of five hundred, but a terrible player of chess. And I'm also not a very good player of "skilled play" D&D - I lack the patience both as player and as GM.

Based on how writers of Dragon articles and zines discussing “skilled play” were using the term, I disagree. You may not mean it as gatekeeping, but they certainly were. Skilled play for them was not about learning the rules of the game, which is the only definition I would use today for pretty much any TTRPG. It was based on the idea that there was a right way to play and a wrong way to play and that there was a level of acquired skill to get your PC from level 1 to level 10 that separated “unskilled” or “inexperienced” players from those who were.

“Oh, fell for the old floating skeleton trick, did ya? Yeah, that’s a gelatinous cube. Don’t worry, you’ll remember that for your next character hopefully.”

That’s a game style that I reject, have rejected, and am not interested in playing. If that’s OSR, then I’m not interested in OSR.

None of this is about "yours is wrong, mine is right". It's about recognising, and admiring (when it's another) or taking pride in (when it's oneself), expertise, deftness, cleverness, etc.

In a game where the DM creates the world, populates the dungeon, and is responsible for describing that dungeon, skilled play is simply not a thing.

 

[Aldarc]

In a game where the DM creates the world, populates the dungeon, and is responsible for describing that dungeon, skilled play is simply not a thing.

I'm not so sure. For example, skilled play is possible in a game like Elden Ring where programmers created the world, populated the world, and provided visualization of that world to the players. Even in games where some of these things may be randomized or use AI, we can still often recognize skilled play when we see it.

 

[Whizbang Dustyboots]

Don't you also talk about fondly of the games made by Flatland Games (e.g., Beyond the Wall, Grizzled Adventurers, Through Sunken Ruins) that have saving throw tables?

It's also why I stopped playing them once I found Shadowdark.

I was running Grizzled Adventurers one-shots when Shadowdark was first announced.

 

[Aldarc]

It's also why I stopped playing them once I found Shadowdark.

I was running Grizzled Adventurers one-shots when Shadowdark was first announced.

That's fair. I would personally prefer something like a mix of Shadowdark and Beyond the Wall. Give me BtW's magic system and standardized progression but with Shadowdark's modernized design, and I would kill the balance in my bank account in a heartbeat.

 

[TiQuinn]

I'm not so sure. For example, skilled play is possible in a game like Elden Ring where programmers created the world, populated the world, and provided visualization of that world to the players. Even in games where some of these things may be randomized or use AI, we can still often recognize skilled play when we see it.

I don’t really think Elden Ring is equatable to a TTRPG though. Yes, you have to mechanically understand the moves of enemies in Elden Ring enough to defeat them and have the reflexes to maneuver with the joypad. What’s the D&D analog to that?

 

[zakael19]

I don’t really think Elden Ring is equatable to a TTRPG though. Yes, you have to mechanically understand the moves of enemies in Elden Ring enough to defeat them and have the reflexes to maneuver with the joypad. What’s the D&D analog to that?

Do you really think that a) skill at system and b) skill at table culture are impossible in TTRPGs? Even in 5e there's a huge difference between the players who are skilled players (understand the ruleset enough to do even mild charop and use their abilities wisely in both combat and out), and those who are just there to roll dice and laugh.

In OSR, it's orthogonal thinking; understanding what all the adventurer's kit can do; learning how to ask questions that are actionable about the world. Again, a skillset.

In narrativist games, it's fronting character drives and pursuing them; playing to agenda so the game drives forward; and manipulating the fictional positioning to give yourself better outcomes.

Edit: Like, the vast majority of my 5e players were not skilled. To use video game metaphors, they're casuals. With a table culture that supports that and facilitates enjoyable gameplay for all participants, that may not matter at all.

But some games require a degree of skill and willingness to engage with the premise beyond simply showing up for success. I may not have the desire to build out my skills at either Elden Ring or Torchbearer 2e play - but I can appreciate and respect those who do.

 

[Whizbang Dustyboots]

That's fair. I would personally prefer something like a mix of Shadowdark and Beyond the Wall. Give me BtW's magic system and standardized progression but with Shadowdark's modernized design, and I would kill the balance in my bank account in a heartbeat.

The shared PC origins and adventure building of Flatland Games combined with Shadowdark's engine would be a killer app for me.