D&D General 5e D&D to OSR pipeline or circle?

[zakael19]

To add to that…
Waking of Willowby Hall.
Hole in the Oak.
Tomb of the Serpent Kings.
The Stygian Library.
Dark of Hot Springs Island.
Dead Planet and Another Bug Hunt for Mothership.

About half of the DCC RPG modules. Includes, but is not limited to…

Sailors on the Starless Sea. Frozen in Time. Peril on the Purple Planet. People of the Pit. Blades Against Death. The Croaking Fane. Against the Atomic Overlord. Moon Slaves of the Cannibal Kingdom.

Just about anything from Michael Curtis or Harley Stroh.

I’d add Hounds of Hendenburgh as well!

tenfootpole’s list of “best new school adventures” is solid - not the least because the reviews are an interesting look at what “works” for gameability.

 

[Retreater]

I also started in the early 90s. But before I got to 2e, I started with the 1991 "black box" basic set and the rules cyclopedia.

I started with the AD&D 2e hardcovers and didn't understand them for years. My "basic set" was HeroQuest.
I've still not played AD&D 1e, B/X, BECMI, etc.

I also dug up my old 2e Campaign Sourcebook and Catacombs Guide, and the advice in there (from Jaquays) would also be at home in any OSR game.

I still have mine. That's what taught me the game. She was my Matt Mercer. I wish I could've gotten her to sign my copy.

 

[Whizbang Dustyboots]

If the Stygian Library had been published by TSR or WotC, people would never stop talking about it. It's probably the most exciting adventure (as a DM) I've ever encountered. The fact that it's effectively systemless is a great bonus.

The new printing is coming early in 2025, per the most recent Gardens of Ynn Kickstarter update. Really, really worth picking up, whether one runs 5E (I used it as a Strixhaven adventure, with an entrance in the Biblioplex) or, frankly, any other fantasy or science-fantasy game.

 

[overgeeked]

If the Stygian Library had been published by TSR or WotC, people would never stop talking about it. It's probably the most exciting adventure (as a DM) I've ever encountered. The fact that it's effectively systemless is a great bonus.

The new printing is coming early in 2025, per the most recent Gardens of Ynn Kickstarter update. Really, really worth picking up, whether one runs 5E (I used it as a Strixhaven adventure, with an entrance in the Biblioplex) or, frankly, any other fantasy or science-fantasy game.

Absolutely. It's a stone-cold classic. I can't believe the OSR crowd isn't abuzz with conversation about it. Such a fantastic module. Thank you for mentioning it on the regular.

 

[Malmuria]

If the Stygian Library had been published by TSR or WotC, people would never stop talking about it. It's probably the most exciting adventure (as a DM) I've ever encountered. The fact that it's effectively systemless is a great bonus.

The new printing is coming early in 2025, per the most recent Gardens of Ynn Kickstarter update. Really, really worth picking up, whether one runs 5E (I used it as a Strixhaven adventure, with an entrance in the Biblioplex) or, frankly, any other fantasy or science-fantasy game.

Both are some of the most fun I've had running RPGs.

My hot take is that I like the original versions more than the remastered version

 

[pemerton]

Skilled play for them was not about learning the rules of the game, which is the only definition I would use today for pretty much any TTRPG.

No, it as not about learning the rules. I know the rules of chess - but am a terrible player.

A person can no the rules for memorising spells, but still be a poor MU player.

It was based on the idea that there was a right way to play and a wrong way to play and that there was a level of acquired skill to get your PC from level 1 to level 10 that separated “unskilled” or “inexperienced” players from those who were.

“Oh, fell for the old floating skeleton trick, did ya? Yeah, that’s a gelatinous cube. Don’t worry, you’ll remember that for your next character hopefully.”

That’s a game style that I reject, have rejected, and am not interested in playing. If that’s OSR, then I’m not interested in OSR.

No one's saying you should be interested in it. I've already posted that I'm merely an observer, not a participant.

But the approach to play which emphasises planning, a combination of familiarity with the tropes plus imaginative thinking around them, careful use of resources, wise judgements of when to engage and when to fall back, etc - it's a real thing. It's existence as a way of playing RPGs isn't "gatekeeping" anything against anyone.

In a game where the DM creates the world, populates the dungeon, and is responsible for describing that dungeon, skilled play is simply not a thing.

This I disagree with. It absolutely is a thing. This blog has a discussion of how one group did it: TRVE KVLT DVNGEON 𝕯𝕽𝕬𝕲𝕺𝕹

 

[pemerton]

Part of the problem is one person's Skilled Play is another person's metagaming. For example, I (the player) knows acid and fire will work on trolls, brown mold exploded with fire, a bugbear isn't a fair fight for a 1st level PC, and never drink the fairy water. But does my PC? Is it skilled play to know the DM would put a secret door at the end of a "dead end" hall? Is it fine to use genre savviness, knowledge of the rules (including knowledge of monster stats) and Meta-game thinking to outwit the DM?

The answer to all these questions is yes - Gygaxian "skilled play" takes it for granted that players, as they gain more experience and familiarity with the game, will exploit tropes and their hard-earned knowledge to do better. That's why tricks, new traps, new and ever-more baroque monsters, etc are such a key part of early D&D.

 

[pemerton]

there's a whole section of the hobby that would consider your version of "story-driven play" as actually quite outdated; are Blades in the Dark players "rejecting modernity" because they don't care for AP-style stories?

If DL-ish AP is "modernity", then I've been rejecting it since the mid-1980s!

I regard AP play as the pits, not as the pinnacle of RPGing experience.

 

[Gus L]

Which is why OSR ends up constantly trying to reinvent the wheel. It can't and won't move past that late-70's era and the mythologized style of play.

I have referenced it once, but I can't help but keep seeing comparisons to the retro-video game movement which seems to have fixated on early NES style aesthetics. To them, its always 1986. Obviously, there is advantages to that (8 bit graphics and sounds are much easier to make than later evolutions), but outside a small contingent of 16 bit style games, the retro-market has decided its mostly trying to re-invent Super Mario Bros, Legend of Zelda, and Punch Out in perpetuity.

Which OSR? There were several. Certainly the early Dragonsfoot forum types were often focused on a nostalgic return. It's hard to say the same thing for stuff like Deep Carbon Observatory, Mothership, and Into the Odd. Now we are in a post-OSR period and it's even more varied. Sure there's some reactionaries claiming that only they represent the OSR ... like all their breed they tend to be loud and vexatious, but they don't produce much in the way of gameable material. Look to actual design in the POSR space and I think you'll find a lot of variety.

It may also be worth noting that "OSR" design innovations have influenced RPG design more generally since 2010 or so - pioneering online play, usability based adventure design and a revitalization of random tables to fill space.

 

[TiQuinn]

But the approach to play which emphasises planning, a combination of familiarity with the tropes plus imaginative thinking around them, careful use of resources, wise judgements of when to engage and when to fall back, etc - it's a real thing. It's existence as a way of playing RPGs isn't "gatekeeping" anything against anyone

Okay, we are talking about two different things.