Darkvision Ruins Dungeon-Crawling

[Micah Sweet]

I think dungeon crawling, even in 5e, really benefits from doing time in 10-minute chunks. It helps me as a GM to manage time that way, I only recently started trying it that way, and now I want to do it more consistently.

Re: darkvision and 5e... 5e has unlimited cantrips- light is a cantrip. Would it be more interesting if you had to choose between a casting of Light or having acid splash/Ray of frost etc if needed? Yeah.

Not real happy with unlimited cantrips either. A different (but related) issue.

 

[Micah Sweet]

Yep. Maybe others played differently... but for me the focuses of dungeon crawling were about exploring areas, fighting monsters, and working your way around traps. That was what dungeon crawling was about. The whole resource-management thing was there, sure... but we weren't playing for that... that was just some smaller thing we had to keep half-an-eye on while doing all the important other stuff. As you say... there were plenty of ways to get around the lighting issue, so it never ended up being "a thing" that we had to get tactically savvy with or work on.

To me resource management is necessary if you want what your PC is doing to feel "real". Handwaving obstacles (and more importantly, creating a culture of handwaving obstacles) makes the experience less immersive and impactful for me, and less fun.

 

[Micah Sweet]

I'll reiterate that while "resource management" in Shadowdark is one aspect of lighting, it's really only a minor one.

What makes it fun is that you can unexpectedly lose your light at critical moments.

Which requires that having or not having light matters.

 

[aco175]

It seems that half of my group play human or a race without DV. They always have light going when underground. There might be a sneak ahead guy with it, but it tends to get handwaved a lot.

 

[R_J_K75]

Not real happy with unlimited cantrips either. A different (but related) issue.

I don't like cantrips as they are now either. They aren't even cantrips anymore, they're unlimited 1st level spells. I preferred when players had to memorize read magic and actually had to identify magical items to figure out what they were. Cantrips used to be the very minimal basic of spells, used to light a pipe, clean up your clothes when they got dirty or spray some Febreze when the Barbarian took a wicked dump. IMO anything that deals damage should be a 1st level spell.

 

[Bill Zebub]

Not real happy with unlimited cantrips either. A different (but related) issue.

Omg we agree. Twice in one week.

 

[Distracted DM]

I don't like cantrips as they are now either. They aren't even cantrips anymore, they're unlimited 1st level spells. I preferred when players had to memorize read magic and actually had to identify magical items to figure out what they were. Cantrips used to be the very minimal basic of spells, used to light a pipe, clean up your clothes when they got dirty or spray some Febreze when the Barbarian took a wicked dump. IMO anything that deals damage should be a 1st level spell.

I'm not even sure on this... thematically I agree, but from a gameplay standpoint if I were to choose unlimited utility or damage cantrips... limited utility cantrips seems to suggest make harder choices. limiting damage cantrips seems to just mean casters have to drop back to darts, slings, crossbows, etc. The utility cantrips are the ones that usually get around obstacles, like Light, Mage Hand, Message, Mending, etc.

 

[Bill Zebub]

To me resource management is necessary if you want what your PC is doing to feel "real". Handwaving obstacles (and more importantly, creating a culture of handwaving obstacles) makes the experience less immersive and impactful for me, and less fun.

I think the design principle should not be that "resource management is fun" but rather "resource management is worth the (un-fun) effort if it enables something that is fun."

Like pooping in your chainmail when that torch goes out mid-fight.

 

[Mannahnin]

Not real happy with unlimited cantrips either. A different (but related) issue.

You can also address it other ways.

For example, 5 Torches Deep has Light as a cantrip, but it's concentration, and in that game being hit or making a save automatically breaks concentration. So you don't use it in place of a torch or something unless you REALLY have to.

(5TD also doesn't have offensive cantrips; casters get proficiency with simple weapons, which includes spears and hunting bows, though not bigger damage stuff like warbows).

 

[Mannahnin]

I'm not even sure on this... thematically I agree, but from a gameplay standpoint if I were to choose unlimited utility or damage cantrips... limited utility cantrips seems to suggest make harder choices. limiting damage cantrips seems to just mean casters have to drop back to darts, slings, crossbows, etc. The utility cantrips are the ones that usually get around obstacles, like Light, Mage Hand, Message, Mending, etc.

Right. I get that unlimited attack cantrips have some annoying worldbuilding implications in that they make the world feel more magic-ful, but they're mostly there so the Wizard doesn't have to resort to a dagger or crossbow or just standing in the back.

It's the utility ones which have more of a gameplay impact.