Darkvision Ruins Dungeon-Crawling

[Thomas Shey]

3e managed it alright, and I don't accept the argument that separating things that need magic to exist from things that don't is a "fool's errand". It absolutely can be done if you want to and are willing to put in the design and worldbuilding work. I won't ever assume otherwise. WotC not doing so now is simply a choice, one of many with which I disagree, because I don't share their design and sales goals.

The problem is, once you start the vast majority of D&D monsters are "magical" by that standard, in one way or another. Even the 3e era "extraordinary ability" was often an informed attribute; it'd be applied to things that everyone would expect was magical if you didn't tell them otherwise.

You might be able to wash magic out of requirement for some basic monstrous humanoids, but even some PC races are magical, even if its in ways that typically don't have any game impact (elvish lifespan is by all evidence not possible without magic or advanced technology for a land animal of the size of a human).

I mean if you're deconstructionist enough you can do it with, well, humans and variants and animals, but that's about it, and you have to even be cautious where you go with them.

 

[Edgar Ironpelt]

The ability to see in the dark is a prime example of the sort of cool wish-fulfillment fantasy that lots of players play the game for.

Darkvision, low-light vision, and other see-in-the-dark abilities are practical necessities for the denizens who live in the dark, which is why so many monsters have those abilities. The handicap of not having those abilities when the opposition does is something many players find annoying rather than fun - although yes, some players do like it as a form of Hard Fun.

But the usual reaction to an area where the PCs can't see is typically 1. find a way to see anyway, 2. avoid the area if (1) isn't possible, 3. proceed with the sort of boring nit-picky ultra-caution that stops being fun very quickly if neither (1) nor (2) are possible.

On the other hand, there is a case for toning down Darkvision a notch, e.g. by a house rule making it "see in complete darkness as if it were shadowy illumination, out to the darkvision's range limit" rather than a "see perfectly in the dark, except without colors" ability.

 

[GrimCo]

You can always treat darkvision like NODs. You need at least some light (visible or infrared). In total darkness, without any source of any type of light, you are blind with or without darkvision. Thats why things that live in total darkness should have blindsight, not darkvision.

 

[nevin]

The ability to see in the dark is a prime example of the sort of cool wish-fulfillment fantasy that lots of players play the game for.

Darkvision, low-light vision, and other see-in-the-dark abilities are practical necessities for the denizens who live in the dark, which is why so many monsters have those abilities. The handicap of not having those abilities when the opposition does is something many players find annoying rather than fun - although yes, some players do like it as a form of Hard Fun.

But the usual reaction to an area where the PCs can't see is typically 1. find a way to see anyway, 2. avoid the area if (1) isn't possible, 3. proceed with the sort of boring nit-picky ultra-caution that stops being fun very quickly if neither (1) nor (2) are possible.

On the other hand, there is a case for toning down Darkvision a notch, e.g. by a house rule making it "see in complete darkness as if it were shadowy illumination, out to the darkvision's range limit" rather than a "see perfectly in the dark, except without colors" ability.

well What I find is if you stick to the rules of darkvision, through enough monsters at them that can see at 120' or have magic that let them see at 120 feet then eventually the PC's don't want to rely on darkvision anymore. Once they realize most monsters can see further than they can then sneaking through the dark without light becomes less fun. But the party going slow and nitpicky if they think something bad is going to happen is the reason I in general hate running Dungeon Delves. I tend to get really bored then start throwing wierd stuff at them that will never make sense. Things like the magic door that takes the thief in a headlock in the middle of the 15 to 30 minute check everything around the door, under the door, check for traps tap the stone from top to bottom to see if any of it's hollow etc. I think I"m just the wrong DM for Dungeon Delving. (Especially things like Temple of Elemental Evil, or Undermountain. I don't like it as a PC , I don't like it as a DM. I prefer stories and bigger arcs and don't like the Indana jones stuff because of all the boring repetition and arguments over do we use torches or do we sneak in the dark that never end.

 

[nevin]

You can always treat darkvision like NODs. You need at least some light (visible or infrared). In total darkness, without any source of any type of light, you are blind with or without darkvision. Thats why things that live in total darkness should have blindsight, not darkvision.

or Tremorsense, or Smell.

 

[Thomas Shey]

well What I find is if you stick to the rules of darkvision, through enough monsters at them that can see at 120' or have magic that let them see at 120 feet then eventually the PC's don't want to rely on darkvision anymore. Once they realize most monsters can see further than they can then sneaking through the dark without light becomes less fun. But the party going slow and nitpicky if they think something bad is going to happen is the reason I in general hate running Dungeon Delves. I tend to get really bored then start throwing wierd stuff at them that will never make sense. Things like the magic door that takes the thief in a headlock in the middle of the 15 to 30 minute check everything around the door, under the door, check for traps tap the stone from top to bottom to see if any of it's hollow etc. I think I"m just the wrong DM for Dungeon Delving. (Especially things like Temple of Elemental Evil, or Undermountain. I don't like it as a PC , I don't like it as a DM. I prefer stories and bigger arcs and don't like the Indana jones stuff because of all the boring repetition and arguments over do we use torches or do we sneak in the dark that never end.

In most dungeon environments, the difference between 60 and 120 feet is moot most of the time; where it typically matters is outdoors.

(And for the sake of all the gods, if someone wants to argue with me, at least note the qualification).

 

[Thomas Shey]

or Tremorsense, or Smell.

Tremorsense is just crippled Blindsense/Sight. Smell is not terribly useful for combat normally.

 

[nevin]

Then you use Tremorsense all wrong. Dirt or sandy floors and they monsters know where every step is coming from and where every step is made. Just like a spider in a web watching, waiting and then Boom. I find other DM's tend to want to use tremorsense on a big baddie in a town or an area where they can't tunnel. At that point I'd have to agree. Put em in a desert cave system with sandy floors and have fun.

 

[nevin]

And as for Smell look up how some snakes use it. Some creatures have such a strong sense of smell they can follow you know where you are and fight you just fine without vision. And if we can have Magical creatures with dark vision why can't smell be a little be over the top and when combined with advanced hearing you have a monster that can smell every footprint you make, and hear where your heart, lungs, intestines and other organs are because it can hear the noise they make. Get Creative have fun with it.

watcha few monster based horror movies to give you ideas

edit. A desert fly can smell a drop of Urine from 5 miles away. Give that to your monster bugs......hehe

 

[Thomas Shey]

Then you use Tremorsense all wrong. Dirt or sandy floors and they monsters know where every step is coming from and where every step is made. Just like a spider in a web watching, waiting and then Boom. I find other DM's tend to want to use tremorsense on a big baddie in a town or an area where they can't tunnel. At that point I'd have to agree. Put em in a desert cave system with sandy floors and have fun.

Don't see how that changes my point. Tremorsense has a benefit or two (detecting underground) but see how trying to use it against fliers or those swinging from ropes and see what it gets you.