D&D (2024) DMG 2024: Is The Sandbox Campaign Dead?

[Reynard]

did the 2014 DMG contain anything about that?

For the record, I do not believe this is a relevant question.

 

[Bae'zel]

In my experience, most players prefer a railroad.

Or at least some kind of structure that pushes things forward. Proverbial question marks hovering over some NPC's head. A job board. Some obviousl looming threat and the consequences of ignoring or failing to impede said threat.

 

[Minigiant]

Thanks for explaining, but I still don't really agree.

I think the capabilities of the PCs certainly impact how you run and play a sandbox. If the PCs have access to "fast travel" magic, for example, the travel and exploration element is going to be downplayed, obviously. But in general, how badass the PCs are and how many widgets they have access to is going to impact "desired power level" no matter what style of campaign you go for.

I got into a discussion on reddit not long ago when I hoped that Crawford's next game would be "Capes Without Number" for superheroes and folks said that you could not do superhero games as a sandbox. Nonsense. Same with high fantasy.

I don't think you get what I'm saying.

There is no such thing as a sandbox game.

There are three completely distinct and different play styles that are all called sandbox each with a different power level.

In order for one game to support all three it has to be have a shared base.

5e is not a good shared base for those 3 gameplay styles.

 

[Firwood]

because they get a lot less money from BG3 sales

No, at the opposite: BG3 save the company. They have less income in other digital media, but BG3 has the big numbers in HASBRO account.

 

[Bae'zel]

5e is not a good shared base for those 3 gameplay styles.

Not without some adjustments and house rules, that's for sure.

3rd party publishes have shown that it can be done reasonably well to meet the slightly "grittier" version. Adventures in Middle Earth by removing spellcasting classes, more detailed journey rules and by restricting long rests. Brancalonia by capping character progression to level 6 and focusing the concept of the adventuring party specifically to a band of scoundrel mercenaries.

 

[Reynard]

I'm not saying that sandbox is require low power.

I'm saying that sandboxes are easier to run whelevelsbase system is low power and the DM is able to adjust the power level to match what the players desire. When you fighter is just a hit die and armor and your wizard is just a smaller hit die with a couple spells and it's like that for several levels, The DM can give you a experience of Scrappy upstarts with no magic items and wandering stone age orcs or the experience of world eaters with Monty Hail and roaning Kaijus.

Because the strength and long-term popularity of a sandbox campaign is about matching the players desired power level.

4E and 5e is default heroic starting place omits 1 of 3 distinct types of sandpox play by default. And it limits a 2nd.

I don't think you get what I'm saying.

There is no such thing as a sandbox game.

There are three completely distinct and different play styles that are all called sandbox each with a different power level.

In order for one game to support all three it has to be have a shared base.

5e is not a good shared base for those 3 gameplay styles.

I am not "getting it" because you have not explained it. What are these 3 distinct playstyles, and how does 5E obviate one or all of them?

 

[Minigiant]

.

Not without some adjustments and house rules, that's for sure.

3rd party publishes have shown that it can be done reasonably well to meet the slightly "grittier" version. Adventures in Middle Earth by removing spellcasting classes, more detailed journey rules and by restricting long rests. Brancalonia by capping character progression to level 6 and focusing the concept of the adventuring party specifically to a band of scoundrel mercenaries.

And those adjustments variant rules and house rules would take up a lot of page space.

And here and like the problem:

You can't complain to WOTC that you want printed products so they cannot take away your purchase material via electronic means...

AND

Demand that they print the very rule for every play style and every table and every tool set that any table would ever want.

 

[TiQuinn]

I was reading through the 2024 DMG Adventure and Campaign chapters and something occurred to me: the DMG does not include player driven sandbox campaigning as mode of campaign play. The campaign framework that the DMG describes in detail and strongly advocates for is one of prepared adventures and established campaign throughlines. It offers some support for travel and exploration, but not a focus of play. Similarly, it mentions player goals in passing, but otherwise does not spend any time of establishing what this looks like as a way to play the game.

(As an aside, there is a surprising lack of support for dungeon play in general given the name of the game, and absolutely nothing about long term dungeon exploration.)

Why does this matter? Because this DMG is clearly designed to be the onboarding product for new DMs, and as such its lessons are going to have a long term impact on the culture of play. The advice in the DMG, especially coupled with the structures and premises of the evergreen adventures new DMs are likely to run, establishes a D&D campaign as a television show with a series long narrative and "season" stories.

I am not saying that this is a bad structure for a campaign. It is a good structure, in fact. But it is not the only structure, and player driven sandbox exploration wherein "stories" emerge from play is a foundation, important and still excellent way to play the game. I am afraid that new GMs will not be exposed to that style of campaign and eventually it will mostly die out (in the same way that the megadungeon mostly died out in official D&D).

I am sure many of you will think I'm nitpicking, being negative or just plain wrong. If the latter, what in the 2024 DMG do you think advocates for and helps support the sandbox playstyle? With any explicit example, how will new DMs discover and produce sandbox campaigns?

Even if you agree with me: what would you add for DMs for sandbox play? How would you alter or add to the Adventure and Campaign chapters, or elsewhere?

ALSO: Let's agree to not center a discussion around the idea that experienced DMs can just ignore the advice and run a sandbox game. Of course they can, but that isn't the point. This is about new DMs.

I think it’s a valid point but I think the reason it’s gone is because it doesn’t fit into any of Wizards’ product offerings. Their adventures are entire campaigns, not smaller adventures designed to be mixed and matched.

If I’m Wizards, I’m not sure I try to change that. I think trying to make every PHB, DMG or MM the be all end all would just be ultimately prohibitive. What I would do is continue the Xanathar’s model of combined PHB and DMG content and possibly include all these various rules that people say are missing from the core books and intersperse them throughout these additional “mini-Core” books, which seem to sell really well.

 

[TwoSix]

Sandboxes are easier when PCs and monsters are weak but equipment and circumstances are strong.

This is an excellent observation.

The core of a sandbox should be "exploration for power". That's much easier to do when the PC's intrinsic gained abilities are weaker, and the effects granted by found items or boons are stronger in comparison.

Modern D&D, where most of the PC power is tied into the metagame character building skeleton, makes the abilities gained by exploration either trivial or overpowered so they actually make an impact on the PC's playstyle.

My best sandbox game was my "classless 5e", where leveling only granted a feat, and new feats were tied to activities in the game.

 

[Firwood]

From this, it sounds like you don't think anyone should be allowed to make a general claim that "D&D is doing better than ever" unless they can point to sales numbers for the PHB in a Hasbro financial report. To me, that seems like a strangely specific and unreasonable requirement.

No no no.
As I explained in a post, I interpreted the sales records ONLY for the 2024 player's manual, whereas the author meant of the entire D&D 5E publishing line from 2014 onward.
I have already answered that, understood in its entirety, the 5th edition is without a shadow of a doubt the best-selling ever.
My remarks are based on the 2024 Player's Handbook alone and related WOTC proclamations that HAVE NO evidence anywhere ("Fast selling D&D product ever!". That's all. If we talk about commercial success, this is seen in the numbers. Those in the public domain (sales in bookstores) spoke of very low numbers (see here: WOTC Inflates Sales Numbers for Player’s Handbook - Physical Book Sales Might Be Low - TGN - Tabletop Gaming News). So yes. It is the numbers that determine the COMMERCIAL success of a product. I see nothing unreasonable or strange in that.
Taken in its entirety, so from 2014 to the present, there is no doubt that it is the most successful edition ever!