D&D (2024) DMG 2024: Is The Sandbox Campaign Dead?

[Minigiant]

I was just pointing out that just about any decision they make gets criticized.

It's crazy why people still wonder why WOTC does the bare minimum.

 

[Micah Sweet]

did the 2014 DMG contain anything about that?

It certainly including a lot more about worldbuilding, which is quite important for sandbox play.

 

[Mistwell]

The Greyhawk section is a good small setting guide. They make good use of the limited page count. But I think it is way overstating it to call it a sandbox guide.

First and most obvious: it literally starts off with giving the GM a few options for a typical throughline based campaign in Greyhawk. Just like the rest of the book.

Sandboxes often have throughlines. I think we're confusing terms here. Players drive the path in a Sandbox, but it doesn't mean DMs don't use that player-driven path to craft a throughline for them. It's not a railroad to propose "Well, since you're seeking out cultists, I'll through a cultist leader in here, and toss evidence they're linked to this lich."

Second, there are none of the support materials that one needs for a sanbox, from encounter tables to faction relationship maps to explanations of what travel and exploration in Greyhawk actually looks and feels like and what mechanics support it.

So, no, the Greyhawk section is not a set of sandbox rules.

I will have to look again but I think there was a travel and exploration in Greyhawk part I read?

 

[Micah Sweet]

I'd wager there's market research suggesting the majority of players aren't playing a sandbox game, or at least the majority that are actively buying WOTC products. It's a harder sort of game to pull off because it requires a bigger level of investment from the players, and depending on how complex, possibly a lot more work from the DM.

I expect that's true, but not having much (or any) official support of the playstyle doesn't exactly help with those numbers.

 

[mamba]

If we talk about commercial success, this is seen in the numbers. Those in the public domain (sales in bookstores) spoke of very low numbers (see here: WOTC Inflates Sales Numbers for Player’s Handbook - Physical Book Sales Might Be Low - TGN - Tabletop Gaming News). So yes. It is the numbers that determine the COMMERCIAL success of a product.

jeez, you are still dragging up this long debunked nonsense?

Let’s start, FLGS do not report their sales, Amazon does not report their sales, WotC selling their bundle or books directly is not reporting their sales, only some US bookstores are, and frequently on a monthly basis and the month end was not even reached. So yeah, that number was laughably unrepresentative and probably too low by a factor of 20 to 30, but it sure worked as clickbait

 

[SkidAce]

The subject is: will the lack of sandbox information in the 2024 DMG lead to a generation of people that come to D&D via 2024 NOT playing sandbox style games, or even knowing they exist?

I agree that the way the DMG is written will shape the new people into following beginner adventures and then into scenario based campaigns.

The DMG also veers away from presenting guidance for use as a toolkit, leading to a reduction in "home campaigns" in groups of newbies.

However, and this is relevant to both the "sandbox" and the "toolkit" theory, as these newbie groups continue to play, I begin to hear things like "I'm going to create my own world", or "Well in my world I changed...". They are getting used to exploring their limits and testing the framework of the game.

So I agree with OP that the 2024 DMG is written in such a way that campaign books, or narrative arcs tend to be the "default.

BUT, sooner or later, a player or DM will say "whats over there?" or "lets solve this differently", and they will learn to adapt, and "sandbox" and "toolkit" style play will emerge organically.

 

[mamba]

The only third part source with real number (still in last september after they claim the huge success) is this ( not the article but the source of copy sold): WOTC Inflates Sales Numbers for Player’s Handbook - Physical Book Sales Might Be Low - TGN - Tabletop Gaming News.

and that number is laughably off, no one should take it as anything but utter unrepresentative nonsense. See my previous reply

 

[Belen]

I haven't read through all the DMG, but given the tone of 5.5 and the obvious focus on purchasable adventures from WotC (the main point of backwards compatibility I believe), I expect you're right about this. I find it very disappointing, since sandbox emergent story play is personally my preferred style and I hate to think of new DMs not being exposed to it in the latest iteration of the game from which I learned about it. It is, I think, more efficient financially to focus on the big adventure path products, which are also easier to run (I freely admit doing sandbox "right" IME takes real effort). So I understand WotC's reasoning here. But to not mention it at all in the DMG is disheartening.

As far as what I would add: every game in Kevin Crawford's ...Without Number series includes an excellent essay explaining and in support of sandbox play, so I would start with something like that. I would additionally release a product (sooner rather than later) that discusses and focuses around the worldbuilding largely downplayed in the 5.5 DMG, including how that supports sandbox play and also including what mechanical changes to the game might facilitate that playstyle. The missing monster creation rules would be a good fit for this proposed product.

Please note that I am very much trying to be fair to WotC and to fans of its current offering here. These suggestions are just what I consider to be improvements to their game that would expose new DMs to what I believe to be a very fun playstyle, one worth preserving for new entrants into our amazing hobby.

Alternatively, new GMs should not run sandbox campaigns. They should get their feet wet by running modules and discovering how to run a session and learning their own style.

I can see why the DMG focused on new DMs would push them into the best path to learn how to be a DM

 

[Minigiant]

Sandboxes often have throughlines. I think we're confusing terms here. Players drive the path in a Sandbox, but it doesn't mean DMs don't use that player-driven path to craft a throughline for them. It's not a railroad to propose "Well, since you're seeking out cultists, I'll through a cultist leader in here, and toss evidence they're linked to this lich."

So, no, the Greyhawk section is not a set of sandbox rules

Encounter shifting sandboxes and Encounter independent sandboxes are 2 different types of sandboxes which require different variant rules, encounter tables, and advice.

 

[Firwood]

and that number is laughably off, no one should take it as anything but utter unrepresentative nonsense. See my previous reply

I don't agree with you, sorry. I followed all the situation, i know this article cover only a part of the market, but i absolutely didn't agree with your conclusion.
I wait to see the real numbers from third parts source or the Q4 financial report from Hasbro.