D&D (2024) DMG 2024: Is The Sandbox Campaign Dead?

[TiQuinn]

yes. In this case, I think it is because giving new DMs advice for running more than one style of game is significantly more valuable than giving them a lore dump, especially considering that there is an example setting in the DMG (which, by the way, I think is a good idea).

Unless you're planning on releasing products that use and support that lore, and you don't plan on releasing any products that have sandboxes.

 

[TiQuinn]

By the way, I think all of this gives fertile ground to the Sly Flourish's and Keith Amman's of the world who write fantastic supplements to the DMG and Monster Manuals. What might not be a best seller by Wizards standards could very well be for third party publishers.

 

[Reynard]

Unless you're planning on releasing products that use and support that lore, and you don't plan on releasing any products that have sandboxes.

Fair enough. I don't like it, but you're right.

By the way, I think all of this gives fertile ground to the Sly Flourish's and Keith Amman's of the world who write fantastic supplements to the DMG and Monster Manuals. What might not be a best seller by Wizards standards could very well be for third party publishers.

Which is great for people that know they want those things and know where to look, but as folks around here are fond of repeating constantly, people that hang out here or elsewhere online are not representative of your average D&D players and the average D&D player will never see that stuff.

 

[OB1]

You can use the Greyhawk.setting in the 2024 DMG in a sandbox campaign, but it isn't actually set up for that or offer any support for it.

I mean, it's everything I need to run a sandbox. For me, a sandbox is a map with some thought starters, and then the campaign is created by responding to what the players do, who they get involved with, and what 'big things' are happening in the world regardless of if they engage with those or not.

More support than that I think tends to lead DMs to try and get players to do whatever is being suggested. Sandbox is the imagination of the DM and the Players improvising along the way.

 

[EzekielRaiden]

I was reading through the 2024 DMG Adventure and Campaign chapters and something occurred to me: the DMG does not include player driven sandbox campaigning as mode of campaign play. The campaign framework that the DMG describes in detail and strongly advocates for is one of prepared adventures and established campaign throughlines. It offers some support for travel and exploration, but not a focus of play. Similarly, it mentions player goals in passing, but otherwise does not spend any time of establishing what this looks like as a way to play the game.

(As an aside, there is a surprising lack of support for dungeon play in general given the name of the game, and absolutely nothing about long term dungeon exploration.)

Why does this matter? Because this DMG is clearly designed to be the onboarding product for new DMs, and as such its lessons are going to have a long term impact on the culture of play. The advice in the DMG, especially coupled with the structures and premises of the evergreen adventures new DMs are likely to run, establishes a D&D campaign as a television show with a series long narrative and "season" stories.

I am not saying that this is a bad structure for a campaign. It is a good structure, in fact. But it is not the only structure, and player driven sandbox exploration wherein "stories" emerge from play is a foundation, important and still excellent way to play the game. I am afraid that new GMs will not be exposed to that style of campaign and eventually it will mostly die out (in the same way that the megadungeon mostly died out in official D&D).

I am sure many of you will think I'm nitpicking, being negative or just plain wrong. If the latter, what in the 2024 DMG do you think advocates for and helps support the sandbox playstyle? With any explicit example, how will new DMs discover and produce sandbox campaigns?

Even if you agree with me: what would you add for DMs for sandbox play? How would you alter or add to the Adventure and Campaign chapters, or elsewhere?

ALSO: Let's agree to not center a discussion around the idea that experienced DMs can just ignore the advice and run a sandbox game. Of course they can, but that isn't the point. This is about new DMs.

Is it dead? No.

Did WotC do much to help or facilitate it? Also no.

This is one of the prices paid for the overweening emphasis on the auteur DM that 5e pushes. Player-driven content (whether that be direct authorship, indirect collaboration, or whatever else) gets pushed to the side so that the DM's "vision" can take center stage. It's just part and parcel of the specific design philosophy 5e has gone for, plus WotC wanting to push their own products, of course. (Can't strictly blame them for that.) Everything arises from and returns to the DM.

 

[Paul Farquhar]

Did WotC do much to help or facilitate it? Also no.

I don’t think they ever have done, nor TSR before them.

 

[TiQuinn]

Fair enough. I don't like it, but you're right.

Which is great for people that know they want those things and know where to look, but as folks around here are fond of repeating constantly, people that hang out here or elsewhere online are not representative of your average D&D players and the average D&D player will never see that stuff.

Except that Wizards has talked about being part of the greater ecosystem and community that it's providing, and can help support that as well. I don't fully buy into notions of what the "average D&D player" knows or doesn't know because largely, I don't think we have good numbers on those things either way, but if a player does get into the game and starts exploring, I think they can find third party products easily enough, and Wizards can also help that, in the same way that they bring in 3PP into D&D Beyond (as an example).

 

[Reynard]

I mean, it's everything I need to run a sandbox. For me, a sandbox is a map with some thought starters, and then the campaign is created by responding to what the players do, who they get involved with, and what 'big things' are happening in the world regardless of if they engage with those or not.

More support than that I think tends to lead DMs to try and get players to do whatever is being suggested. Sandbox is the imagination of the DM and the Players improvising along the way.

Random encounter tables.
Faction relationship maps.
Tools for other random/procedural generation.
Sandboxes require all of these things.

 

[DinoInDisguise]

I think WotC has been pushing storytelling over the "game" for a while now, and I think that harms the popularity of this style of play.

If a group wants the best "narrative" they are going to approach the game in different way. We don't have novels authored by committee or randomly generated from tables for a reason. So as WotC pushes this type of game where the story telling is front and center, and you get new players exposed to Critical Role's tight narratives, the player base moves towards those types of stories. We see this is the growing sentiment, on social media, that DMs are entertainers and not players.

Another poster articulated the idea of open world games, where you have a overarching narrative that is center to the campaign but the players are free to move around the world and interact as they wish. I think this is where a lot of newer players view sandbox games. They think of the idea differently, as they started playing in a different time. This, also, lines up more with the actual plays you see on youtube which influence millions of players.

I also think Ezekiel said something very astute here;

It's just part and parcel of the specific design philosophy 5e has gone for

5e's core design lends itself to a different style. Sandbox, in a traditional sense, is possible, but not greatly incentivized in many of the design decisions of the system. I think this is why there is a divide in the perception of 5e. Certain playstyles expose flaws 5e's design, while others don't. The focused narrative games we see in actual plays simply don't have many of the issues with 5e's design as other styles might.

I think WotC decided storytelling was the part of the hobby with the broadest appeal, and leaned into this idea of narrative driven campaigns with 5e. And I think, with the help of Critical Role, the community, mostly, followed.

So I think it's a, somewhat, purposeful move by WotC. And I think they feel rewarded for that move, rightly or wrongly, due to how 5e has panned out sales-wise.

 

[MichaelSomething]

Luckily, the DMG isn't the only source for DMs. There are plenty of YouTube videos on the subject!